Using Correct Electrical Terms in Reports

[Joe Farsetta]

Ryan,

Far too many inspectors flag "code" issues. HI's are not code enforcers and are not the AHJ. We have no business citing "code". Even where we are code "certified" we have no business, as we are not the decision makers; the AHJ is.

That notwithstanding, many code inspectors have their heads up their collective butts. Some of them make things up as they go. I've seen it. They bust balls because they CAN, not because they HAVE to. MAny times they arfent even correct in their interpretation. Many allow the sloppiest of work, look the other way, get paid off, or just do not care.

Many HIs fall into the same scum-bucket. As do many "qualified" contractors.

There is good and bad in any industry. So, many in your own profession qualify as a-holes. YZou acknowledge this, and that's okay.

Time to move on.

For all, remember that life is a lesson; you learn it when you're through.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

For all, remember that life is a lesson; you learn it when you're through.

Or similar is definition of Experience= A whole bunch of mistakes.

Marcel

[Ryan C. Jackson]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Ryan,

Far too many inspectors flag "code" issues. HI's are not code enforcers and are not the AHJ. We have no business citing "code". Even where we are code "certified" we have no business, as we are not the decision makers; the AHJ is.

That notwithstanding, many code inspectors have their heads up their collective butts. Some of them make things up as they go. I've seen it. They bust balls because they CAN, not because they HAVE to. MAny times they arfent even correct in their interpretation. Many allow the sloppiest of work, look the other way, get paid off, or just do not care.

Joe, I think you hit the ball out of the park. I couldn't agree more.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Ryan C. Jackson

You're right Joe, a while back I did post a comment at another forum stating that home inspectors were a joke. This is/was based on many experiences with them. At the time that I had written that, I had not met a single HI that wasn't a joke. The one that worked for the buyer of my old home that I was selling wrote "violations" that even my wife knew were inaccurate. She called me at work, I went home and met him with several code books, and showed the guy how wrong he was.

I have also had several home owners call me at my office (I work as a municipal inspector) after an HI had visited their homes, and they told me how terrible my cities inspectors are. I visit their house, see their "violations" and give the owner and HI code references showing that they are not violations.

Now, having said all of that, I have since met some HIs that do very good work, and are well versed in not only quality/workmanship issues, but code issues as well.

...so...I did say that HIs are jokes. If I could recant that, I would say that many HIs are jokes...but many municipal inspectors are jokes as well. Search the internet for degenerate inspectors that are taking bribes, or doing hundreds of inspections a day. Those people give me a bad name just like many HIs give you guys a bad name.

Joe called me today, and we had a nice talk. He asked me if I would visit the site and emphasise the fact that it indeed was me that stated that HIs are jokes. Indeed, those were my words.

Edited for spelling.

Ryan You are not the only one Write about home Inspectors .
("jtedesco1 ") had a lot of fun posting about a Retired Electrician who is now a home Inspector
For Joe to Bring up your name when He has done the same thing
posting on another BB ,He also stated HIs where a joke .
Things some times come Back to haunt us .
I remember as I was the Home Inspector .
Roy Cooke retired 50 years a member of IBEW .

I also do not use Code!

Cookie

Time may be a great healer ,but it's a lousy beautician
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[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by rcooke

Ryan You are not the only one Write about home Inspectors .
("jtedesco1 ") had a lot of fun posting about a Retired Electrician who is now a home Inspector
For Joe to Bring up your name when He has done the same thing
posting on another BB ,He also stated HIs where a joke .
Things some times come Back to haunt us .
I remember as I was the Home Inspector .
Roy Cooke retired 50 years a member of IBEW .

I also do not use Code!

Cookie

Time may be a great healer ,but it's a lousy beautician
</IMG>

Roy:

I have been vindicated by Ryan's comments above where he said he called the HI jokes, read the post, and as far as the other comments I posted the list of what you said you do during an inspection and that it was a bit less than what I thought it should be. We are talking about 3-4 years ago!

Follow the SOP and that will be enough, but for those who want to learn we will carry on and share our experiences.

Can we see a sample of a report where the electrical systems are identified and show defects?

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Roy:

I have been vindicated by Ryan's comments above where he said he called the HI jokes, read the post, and as far as the other comments I posted the list of what you said you do during an inspection and that it was a bit less than what I thought it should be. We are talking about 3-4 years ago!

Follow the SOP and that will be enough, but for those who want to learn we will carry on and share our experiences.

Can we see a sample of a report where the electrical systems are identified and show defects?

NO Joe I will not send you one of my reports .
I have read your ideas for too long and do not need to get in a discussion with you.
You have a great knowledge but much of it is ( In my opinion ) no use to Home Inspectors.
We have many Good electricians who work at the trade every day who give much help to lots of Home Inspectors Including me .
They give information that is complete and concise and is usually easily understood by Home Inspectors.

...Cookie

Raising teenagers is like nailing jelly to a tree.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Using street logo is OK,

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

I will say that you will be better off knowing what the terms are so you can talk to a professional electrical person

Joe I must say that I agree with your quote above on using the correct electrical terms when talking about an electrical system.

It would be a big benefit to all involved if we all used the same terms. It would stop a lot of confusion and even make the understanding of what educators are talking about.

I see a lot of confusion in the classroom even when talking to code enforcement officials. A good example of this is the confusion that revolves around the white conductor found in panels especially residential panels.

I find that a lot of electricians and code enforcement officials keep calling the white conductor of a 120 volt circuit the “neutral”
We both know that a 120 volt circuit does not have a neutral. We both know that the only neutral is part of a three or more wire circuit consisting of more than one ungrounded conductor as outlined in 250.26 when we are told which conductors that must be grounded or connected to earth.

250.26 Conductor to Be Grounded — Alternating-Current Systems.
For ac premises wiring systems, the conductor to be grounded shall be as specified in the following:
(1) Single-phase, 2-wire — one conductor
(2) Single-phase, 3-wire — the neutral conductor
(3) Multiphase systems having one wire common to all phases — the common conductor
(4) Multiphase systems where one phase is grounded — one phase conductor
(5) Multiphase systems in which one phase is used as in (2) — the neutral conductor

I also think that using the proper terms when discussing a 120 volt circuit will help more than one reader of this forum.

What do you think?

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by rcooke

NO Joe I will not send you one of my reports .
I have read your ideas for too long and do not need to get in a discussion with you.
You have a great knowledge but much of it is ( In my opinion ) no use to Home Inspectors.
We have many Good electricians who work at the trade every day who give much help to lots of Home Inspectors Including me .
They give information that is complete and concise and is usually easily understood by Home Inspectors.

...Cookie

Raising teenagers is like nailing jelly to a tree.

I was not aware of your impression of me, and how you felt about my expertise being of no value to home inspectors.

Are you afraid that they will learn more about the industry and go onto become better inspectors?

I never said that electricians give better advice, hey when their advice is accurate, that's good.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Joe I must say that I agree with your quote above on using the correct electrical terms when talking about an electrical system.

It would be a big benefit to all involved if we all used the same terms. It would stop a lot of confusion and even make the understanding of what educators are talking about.

I see a lot of confusion in the classroom even when talking to code enforcement officials. A good example of this is the confusion that revolves around the white conductor found in panels especially residential panels.

I find that a lot of electricians and code enforcement officials keep calling the white conductor of a 120 volt circuit the “neutral”
We both know that a 120 volt circuit does not have a neutral. We both know that the only neutral is part of a three or more wire circuit consisting of more than one ungrounded conductor as outlined in 250.26 when we are told which conductors that must be grounded or connected to earth.

250.26 Conductor to Be Grounded — Alternating-Current Systems.
For ac premises wiring systems, the conductor to be grounded shall be as specified in the following:
(1) Single-phase, 2-wire — one conductor
(2) Single-phase, 3-wire — the neutral conductor
(3) Multiphase systems having one wire common to all phases — the common conductor
(4) Multiphase systems where one phase is grounded — one phase conductor
(5) Multiphase systems in which one phase is used as in (2) — the neutral conductor

I also think that using the proper terms when discussing a 120 volt circuit will help more than one reader of this forum.

What do you think?

The mike and stage is yours, go for it Cowboy, go on and teach them from the very beginning, me I have been told that I speak a different language.

Gosh after so long, maybe I am getting to old for this stuff!

I will be on a tour beginning this month that takes me twice around the USA, and this is the 25th year that I will be doing so! Nationwide Seminar Schedule

[Blaine Wiley]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Joe I must say that I agree with your quote above on using the correct electrical terms when talking about an electrical system.

It would be a big benefit to all involved if we all used the same terms. It would stop a lot of confusion and even make the understanding of what educators are talking about.


I also think that using the proper terms when discussing a 120 volt circuit will help more than one reader of this forum.

What do you think?

Mike,

I don't believe that the discussion at the beginning of this thread was related to education. I believe that the vast majority of the inspectors you will run across know ungrounded conductor, grounded conductor, grounding conductor, dead-front, etc.

The original post reflected use of proper terms in a report. The general public doesn't know whether the black wire is hot, grounded, neutral, ungrounded conductor, or a dead-front, and quite frankly they don't care. They simply want the corrections made that we find, therefore most of us write our reports in laymans terms in all areas of the home, not just the electric section.

Since my average client is 60+ years old, calls the service panel a "fuse box", and calls rain gutters "eaves troughs", perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.

During education it is essential that proper terminology is taught and recognized. During the inspection, it is imperative that the inspector communicate with they buyer in terms that the buyer understands, and we don't have the time to hold an electric class during the inspection, and an HVAC class, structural class...and you get my point.

So, to ask an inspector to send in a report to check for proper terminology is arrogant and somewhat demeaning. We already have a report review committee. All home inspectors should be enthused about learning everything they can about every system they will run across in a residential home inspection, which is what 98% of the inspectors here work on. If we can keep that as our mindset, we can stop these pissing matches here.

[Blaine Wiley]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

CABINETS AND CUTOUT BOXES (CYIV)

GENERAL

This category covers sheet-metal boxes and nonmetallic boxes. Cutout boxes are provided with a door secured by hinges and one or more fasteners and are intended for surface mounting. A cabinet consists of two parts: a cabinet box and a mating cabinet front that contains a door.
A cabinet may be flush mounted or surface mounted. These boxes are intended for installation in accordance with Article 312 of ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code.’’

So a panel cover is not correct and although Deadfront is used the term here is the correct term, I must say.

PS: Anyone who wants me to review their electrical narratives can send them to me and let me BOLD the suggestions I have, so that when talking to a electrician the same language will be spoken.

Let's all keep in mind the orignal post, quoted above.

Our reports aren't written for electricians to read, they are for the buyer. If an electrician needs to contact us because he/she doesn't know laymans terms and only speaks electricianese, they are welcomed to do so by every inspector that I know.

Our goal is to inform the buyer and help them get the deficiencies they can't live with corrected to their satisfaction.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by bwiley

Let's all keep in mind the orignal post, quoted above.

Our reports aren't written for electricians to read, they are for the buyer. If an electrician needs to contact us because he/she doesn't know laymans terms and only speaks electricianese, they are welcomed to do so by every inspector that I know.

Our goal is to inform the buyer and help them get the deficiencies they can't live with corrected to their satisfaction.
[/left]

Yes, I agree and will not suggest any changes in the HI language, my point was that the terms already defined in the national standards should be readily accessible to the HI when the need arises.

Can you tell me what loom is when speaking about K&T?

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by bwiley

Mike, Since my average client is 60+ years old, calls the service panel a "fuse box", and calls rain gutters "eaves troughs", perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.

This reminds me of a call I done a few years back where the house had already closed and the reality company sent me out to check a shallow well pump.

When I got there the little old lady met me at the door to show me the pump. It was an old Red Devil above ground centrifugal pump.

As we were walking down to the pump house she was telling me that the “appraiser” (Home Inspector) said that the “bump starter” needed attention. Well I am scratching my head trying to figure out just what a “bump starter” is and all the time I am thinking it is the pressure switch.

The pump wouldn’t start until I pushed the reset button so I let it build up pressure and shut off. Then I open up the hose bib and let the water run until it called for the pump to start. I let it cycle on and off a couple of times and then the reset kicked off again.

This little old lady scared the crap out of me when she screamed at the top of her lungs. “See the bump starter just quit.”

Yes I can understand just what you are talking about when you refer to the fuse box and eave troughs and now I know what a bump starter is. You got to bump it before the pump will run.

I never saw the report but I was later told that the report did call it the reset for the pump and mentioned that there was a problem with the pump motor but I have never nor will I ever forget that little old lady calling it the bump starter. When teaching about overloads for motors in the classroom I will make mention of this “bump starter” and when an auto “bump starter” (reset) is and is not allowed for motors.

Thank you for this little stroll down memory lane.

[Blaine Wiley]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Can you tell me what loom is when speaking about K&T?

Of course I can, even though I have never come across K&T wiring in a home.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by bwiley

Of course I can, even though I have never come across K&T wiring in a home.

http://ltmtnele.tripod.com/sitebuild...nob2lowres.jpg

OK, some called it dirt and the inspection of this type of system can be scary for sure. Florida inspectors have it too easy, no basements, or old systems like this one. Is there any in Florida?