Voltage Drop

[Paul W. Abernathy]

YIKES....I just read my previous post and I sound like some freakin GHANDI or something today.....man I need more coffee

[phinsperger]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Really......it is SO important to know how to use a SureTest properly...I offered to do a course and even online it to show all the ins and outs of it, how to use it to check devices and so on and I got too much flack saying it was " OVER " the SOP......like Infrared and other things arnt..but alas I gave up on it....

That's a shame. I have a Suretest and would have looked forward to such a course.

I don't think knowing information beyond the SOP makes a inspector more likely to go beyond the SOP. Certianly some would but I think most are inteligent enough to knwo what to say and what not to say. I hope i'm not wrong? [-o<

Perhaps courses like the one Paul A proposed should simply require that the inspector pass the SOP quiz first.

[Frank P. Newman]

I just stumbled aqcross this thread and have found it to be very interesting and educational reading ! Here are a few thoughts...

1. Way up the list there was a short discussion about the wisdom of having a couple of driveway lights at the end of a fairly long run of #14. I'm surprised that no one pointed out that the voltage drop due to the long run matters only to the extent you wish to be able to see the light burning. An incadescent bulb will operate quite safely on any voltage at or below its rating - it will just keep getting dimmer as the voltage decreases.

2. Voltage drop, as mentioned above, can be a function of many factors, each of which has to be understood and properly evaluated before declaring a 'safety' defect.

3. If we are going to test voltage drop, should such testing be limited to 15a receptacles? I would be more concerned about the circuit feeding the electric stove, or other high load devices.

4. If we, not as engineers, but as Home Inspectors, are going to check for voltage drop using SureTest or other devices, how many receptacles and circuits should we test? I would hate to have stand up in court to try and explain why I only tested a few convenient "representative" locations, when the one behind the bed caused the fatal fire.

Overall, to me it is a 'slippery slope' that I don't think most home inspectors are prepared to tackle. Of course, all this is JMHO.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Not long ago I had the honor of a beer with a retired home inspector -- He was sued once in 30 plus years in the profession.

Two children died in a electrical fire -- He had inspected it and had NOT done a voltage drop test. He had not noted any major electrical problems. He stated that it was a 100 amp service and that some of the outlets were painted. He did not pull the front off the breaker box. (He does not like electrons)

He recommended upgrading if additional ckts we needed since all the breaker slots were used.

He walked because the parents were trying to heat the home with some electric heaters because the gas had been turned off for 6 months do to non payment and winter set in.

The fire started in master bed room outlet behind bed. Electric heater was the only load. Parents down stairs watching TV

Home was a rental - Guess who had to write the check - Guess who was very sad about the death of two small children that he could have perhaps prevented -- Can you say HI??

I know Paul replied to this already but I must also comment.

While extremely sad, this case has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand of voltage drop. This is a black and white case of parents looking for ANYONE to blame for something terrible that happened. I guess the HI was the easiest target. I would think the LL would be the most responsible.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Speedy

Yes, you are correct, the LL was the person that took it in the shorts. He did not rent a home that was electrical safe

Sorry but I do feel that this is on thread of voltage drop (ShureTest would have probably found it)

The parents also should have payed the gas bill and so it goes

BUT the HI did not flag the home as being needing of a good electrician.

Paul

Yes, you are correct as I understand the story outlet heated up IR loss went up (voltage drop), then more heat, then the bed sheets, curtains and then the up went the upstairs

rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

Mike

The HI in question is from Michigan and now works in our county as a code officer. He was very active with Great Lakes ASHI. I have learned a lot from him. Some day I will get the story revised without the beer so you can use it. I assume that you instruct electricians


Look at it this way - current = IR loss (voltage drop) = heat = more resistance = more heat = a problem if we don't dissipate the heat

At this time you do not know my background and I do not know yours so if you don't tell me yours I will not tell you mine

Now that we have a clean page

I am sure that you understand that somewhere a breaker would trip with 12 outlets with 12 amps of load on each unless we were using some very large wire and a big breaker. Rating and usage are two different things.

Yes, the heater is the problem not the voltage drop. It should not have been used.

Please remember that the applied voltage at the heater went down (Voltage Drop) because of the bad outlet and other resistance issues. When the voltage went down at the heater it cooled down a little thus its resistance went down a little and it pulled more current making the problem worse

As a matter of note I do not like ShureTest

It only loads the Ckt for a short time which does not allow a bad connection to heat up like it would with normal use with something like a space heater or iron etc. If allowed to heat up the resistance would go up and the VD would get worse.

I am always willing to come to the site to work with a system professional that has a problem with my findings

No I do not test voltage drop in all cases and never on "wired in" equipment

Too hard to get to terminals and they don't pay us for the extra time

No I do not test all outlets - It is hard to find all of them - move all the junk and not break some old pot on top of something. (my back is not a strong as it was a few years back)

Real simple if it is bad report it -- if the system professional does not agree -- you still reported it

This idea of looking for VD will cost us work sounds like a realtor. I work for my client. If the home need a good electrician and he makes very good money he should buy me the beer

Just like some of the other "looking" that some of us are doing (thermo imaging camera) Standby here comes thermo imaging of the electrical system under load

rlb



rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

All

Get educated and start testing for Voltage Drop

ShureTest not my first choice but who is in second place?

rlb

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by rbennett

All

Get educated and start testing for Voltage Drop

ShureTest not my first choice but who is in second place?

rlb

Can you tell me why we should be testing for voltage drop?

..... Cookie

[rdawes]

I use a Suretest because I didn't know of a comparable product from someone else. Is there?

Using the $10 3 light tester in an outlet takes 1 second, using the Suretest takes 3 seconds. Not a big time increase. Each inspector makes their own choices.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Cookie

Look at your own home

What can you test for and that you could correct that you can not see that would hurt you, your loved ones, and your home??

Smoke detectors
CO detectors
GFCI's
Radon

How about VD to show up a bad connection in a junction box

Ever see the inside of a breaker panel that had a high resistance connection that caught fire and hurt the home?

VD shows problems - it is easy to test for -

If you were buying a home would you like someone to test for VD?

The cost is low and it does show problem

I just don't like the ShureTest way of doing it

Maybe someone from ShureTest needs to give me a sales pitch

My home was built in 1925 and has been electrically updated many times

It is not as big of a mess as when I moved in and I know I have problems to the point that when we go on vacation I kill all breakers except the refrigerator and a few lights on timers

I have replaced over 75% of every wire

VD was a very large problem

rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

Cookie

As an electrician (retired) is the problem the testing or is it the HI testing

If you sent a good employee but not an electrician to a home with a "GOOD" test box to do VD testing and then come back to the office with the results, would it be a good deal??

Thank goodness that we are not using gas lights and candles

As time passes our electrical hopefully get better and safer but at this time in my market I see a mess

It is almost to the point that if I was not a HI and buying a home I would almost call an electrician



rlb

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

It is Home Inspectors testing above there ability . Where does it end .
If HI #1 inspects for Voltage drop ( not a big concern in my mind )
and advertises this then others will be trying to do the same thing .
(I see how many HIs have very little knowledge on electricity on this BB)
( some need to have a bit of improvement )
Now HI #2 is and expert in gas and he uses this as his advertisement and he looks for things Most HIs
( including me ) would not be concerned about .
If HI #3 is an heating air then he is using this to increase his inspections .
There are just too many things we do not need to be trying to check on and are just increasing time spent doing an inspection and giving us more places to go wrong.
We are generalists not specialists and should not be trying to look like a specialist.
It seems the older Home Inspector who has been around and set up the SOP we all try to follow .
It is the new HIs who are looking for the niche to make more work .
It in my openion will back fire and come back to haunt us .
If a person want to specialize great but why try to specialize and inspect homes at the same time.
It can not be done in three ± hours
.
........ Cookie

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by rcooke

It can not be done in three ± hours
.
........ Cookie

Roy:

If I complete the onsite part of an inspection of a 2000 sq ft home in less than 3 hours now, I start to wonder what I may have missed......and I don't test water temps, pressure; don't have IR. Did a 1 year warranty inspection on a 1.5 million home last year and was there over 16 hours by the time I figured out and documented all the screw-ups!!

[Richard L. Bennett]

Roy

You are a good HI, a good electrician and a good debater

Good points on your post - just remember that as the black boxes of our profession get better our time at the home comes down and the services that we can provide to our clients goes up. This saves everyone $$ and pain

We hopefully will never be better that the system professionals but we should be able to test (not just look at) the home systems

$10.00 buys a water pressure meter - $10.00 buys a thermometer to check the hot water temp - $10.00 buys a 3 light tester. $200.00 buys a camera, etc.

Radio Shack and Home Depot sell most of the black boxes that we need

I do not think we would be doing our clients a good service to go back to just a flashlight

Someone testing for VD is not a specialist
Someone testing for radon is not a specialist
Someone testing for water quality is not a specialist

etc. etc. etc.

VD is the issue and it takes little time to make the check

If the equipment was a little less $$ the home owner could do it himself

VD testing saves $$ and gives the home owner a better picture of his electrical system

I just don't like SureTest

If you were called to a home as an electrician to inspect - would you do any VD testing to find high resistance issues??

If why - then why?

If not - then why?

Remember you know what can go wrong if someone plugs an electric space heater in the bed room to keep the kid warm


rlb

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

If I read the post correctly about the Yo-yo that didn't remove the electrical panel cover to look inside. That itself is enough to get you convicted of almost any electrical issue later down the road - let alone killing 2 kids.