Were these really electricians?

[Douglas Cossar]

Just a word to Mr. Whitt:

Just because something was installed according to code at the time of installation is not , in my opinion, justification for not making safety upgrades.

GFCIs became required for a reason, not just because someone invented it and wanted to sell lots of em.

I call out lots of things that are safety related that have nothing to do with code.

BTW doing something to "code" is not bragging IMHO

Just my $.02

Cheers

[Pierre Belarge]

Doug
I think what Mike is trying to explain is the legal aspects of what is code, and the differences of an electricain's responsibility and an HI's responsibility.


There is definitely a difference between the two types of industries.
We, in the electrical industry cannot force someone to install something if it is not code, even if it will be a safer installation.

HIs on the otherhand can have a different impact on installations for safety, as the sale or financing of a large $ figure stems on your report, and some will not quible with a small installation fee for the difference of time and money involved in their sale/financing.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

As an electrical contractor I have been called to verify the report of Home Inspectors.

When I check what the Home Inspector has called out I refer to the date of installation and whether the item questioned complied with the electrical code at that time.

If the item in question is in compliance with the code at the time of installation I make this statement to the person that hired me for the consultation. I don’t have a problem making the statement in writing on letterhead. By making the statement I am not assuming any liability or implying warranties at all.

A good example would be GFCI devices. When was GFCI required?
1975 for bathrooms, 1987 for kitchens within 6' of the sink, 1996 all kitchen counters, not just those within 6' of the sink but these requirements may have been adopted later in your area.

We all know, and it is a good thing, that most Home Inspectors will call out any of these areas if they don’t see GFCI protection. On the other hand when I am called it is my job to inform my employer that if the installation was made prior to the requirement date there is nothing in NC law that requires them to be changed now.

The same is true with some of the items mentioned in the original post. 250.32 allows for a detached garage to have the neutral and equipment grounding conductors bonded.
It is possible to install receptacles in compliance with 406.3(D) that will show an open ground with plug in testers.
Some manufactures of breakers such as Square D allows their breakers to be double tapped.

It is very possible that the electricians were giving correct information to these people.

Not to start a fight, just for information.

Your quote shows the different levels and standards that home inspectors are held to (in some states, like mine, by law). We are reauired to call out problems based upon safety (according to CURRENT standards), not upon mere local codes.

And if you document that a GFCIs were 'not required' (grandfathered) and some one gets seriously shocked, you can bet your fram that you do have liability and will get sued.

Different jobs, different standards, different liability.

And, just because is thing is 'not required by law' does not mean it is safe.

Hope this helps;

[Mike Whitt]

Whoa, Whoa up Gentlemen,

Mr. Wilcox in the original post was asking why the electrician would make statements that what he had called out was wrong.

In my reply I was sure to make this statement,

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

We all know, and it is a good thing, that most Home Inspectors will call out any of these areas if they don’t see GFCI protection.

I was just explaining to Mr. Wilcox why an electrician would sometimes contradict the Home Inspectors opinion.

Remember gentlemen that in most cases the HI is working for the buyer and the electrician is working for the seller. Once each has made their report it is in the hands of the buyer and seller to hash out the issues. Both of us have done what we were hired to do.

As a side note: when I am called out in such cases I always point that to replace the devices for GFCI protection would be the safe thing.

[Marc D. Shunk]

I would maintain that if this is a detached garage referenced in the original post, not seperating the neutrals and grounds can still be 100% legal and safe at this very day.

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by tdietrich1

WOW two people agreed with me? Must be the 07-07-07 thing!

Two things:
Bill do you have some good standard verbiage for us to see/use?
Second, where are my greenies!!!!

tom

Ever here an expression pertaining to a blind squirrel finding a nut?

Honestly, I'm not surprised. Your a knowledgeable person and a damn good inspector. [/kissa*$]

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by tdietrich1

I went and got me a lottery ticket!

If you won I'll buy half of that ticket!

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by gwilcox

I called out a subpanel in a garage, because the neutral and grounds were not separated. The realtor mentioned that the electrician said it was no big deal, and left it. I mentioned that there were outlets with open grounds, and the seller said they called 2 licensed electricians that had no idea what I was talking about. I mentioned that they should have GFCI outlets in the kitchen bath's and garage and they installed one in every outlet in those rooms. I called their attention to Double tapped circuit breakers and the electrician says that they do it all the time, it's no big deal. What gives?

Ok...time for my comments....

1.) The subpanel ( remote distribution panel ) in the detached garage just may be legal and compliant IF their is no potential between the two structures...but we have talked about that before so I wont digress unless you want me to. ( been told I am too long winded )

2.) It would be beyond your scope to try to determine the potential between these two structures unless it was obvious like a telephone line, switched light, concrete re-bar walkway, or similar connection between the two structures...then the 3 wire option is POOF......would need to be 4 conductors.

3.) As for the open ground......I guess it really depends on if the system even has a ground to begin with. If they used 3 prong plugs in the house and it is not protected by GFCI ahead of it then it is a problem...if the house is just old and has no grounding ( EGC-Bonding Conductor ) in place then an open ground really means nothing to the EC as it is still legal to have 2 wire receptacles in dwellings depending on the period.

4.) I would have "RECOMMENDED" GFCI's in those areas to safeguard life and limb so to speak but again it may not have been required at the time of construction....BUT most certainly as a safety aspect you should always recommend them...safety first....money second.

5.) AS for the double tapped circuit breaker.....the comment they made that it is done all the time is probably correct...does not make it right but his statement is correct in that it is done all the time....improperly done but still done...unless of course it is a Cutler Hammer CH or Square D QO and Homeline breaker which do allow double taps......but I highly doubt it...

Remember just because an electrician says they do something all the time does not mean it is done RIGHT all the time...they just dont know any better in many cases....this does not make them a bad electrician...just one that is not up to date on code changes and so on...which is where education comes in...we all should strive to LEARN...everyday......

Edited: Thanks TOM......I never double tap anyway even if the breaker DID allow it....and yes we are GEEKS !

[tdietrich1]

A double tap breaker is with two wires in direct contact with each other, CH and S-D have separate sections on the pressure plate to allow for copper wires, so it's not technically double tapping.

BTW, good post Paul however you omitted HomeLine allows for two copper conductors too.

tom

[klott]

make it 4 Tom.

[klott]

I have never heard of an inspector being sued for recommending and upgrade, but I have heard of them being sued for failing to recommend one.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Homeline's I am familiar with do not allow double taped breakers, I have one sitting in front of me as we speak and makes no reference to allowing multiple conductors to the termination point. Where as the QO model I also have in front of me does make reference to it...thus listed for it.

CH's breaker allows for it via a wedge design....which clamps down and pushes each conductor to a beveled side...while the QO version uses individual holding points on each side of the termination screw.

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Homeline's I am familiar with do not allow double taped breakers, I have one sitting in front of me as we speak and makes no reference to allowing multiple conductors to the termination point.

I have one right now, my 5 year old uses it to play with, and when looking at it straight on, with the amperage and name upright, look to the right. Molded into the plastic is photos of two conductor usage.

Verbiage:

(image of single conductor attached) with "#14 - #8 AWG Al/Cu
(image of two conductors attached) with "#14 - #10 AWG Cu

Then look at the mounting point, it has to spaces for wires.

tom

P.S. What freaking electrical geeks have breakers laying around, my 5 year old wants to be a plumber - electrician.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol.....mine does not say that on my homeline I have...just the QO version. Maybe I have an old one.....my son puts it under his pillow wanting to be like DAD.....( NOT...just kidding...he wants to be an rocket scientist instead )

Picture fella...Picture...I need a picture...lol

Oh wait.......you are right.....2006 and later homelines do have the ability for (2) conductors.....I have the one sitting here I seminar with...an older model I believe 2004 or something.....good to see Square D is moving their features DOWN to the lower line products now days....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

OK...now when is Eaton going to move that down to their BR series now..I will have to ask them as you KNOW they can't be left behind...lol