White Wire to Breaker and Splice Inside Panel

[maitai11]

Hi -

I'm just double checking here...

1. White wire to breaker is ok IF it is wrapped with black electrical tape indicating that it is "Hot". Please confirm?

2. Splicing inside the main electrical panel - not permitted, right? The argument I got was that they were trying to avoid a double lug/tap condition. Please confirm?

Thanks in advance!!

Maitai

[nwagner]

1. What argument did you get for using a white wire with black tape instead of the standard black wire? I wouldn't consider it okay; sounds like a handyman job that needs the evaluation of a competant electrician.

2. While not recommended, splicing in panels is not condemned by NEC as long as it is done properly (with proper sized wire nuts, etc.). Sounds better than double tapping to me too.

[maitai11]

Thanks for the input...I maintained that a licensed electrician needs to investigate and verify.

[Speedy Petey]

For a straight 240v circuit, such as for a larger wall A/C or shop tool, it is/was very common and legal to run "2-wire" (eg: 12/2). This would put the black and white on a two-pole breaker.
Until the last code cycle there was NO requirement to re-mark the white wire. There is a new requirement to re-mark the white wire to a hot color, only tape is not an option for wires under #4. Typically we use a Sharpie marker, paint is also acceptable.
So, if this is a house that more than a few years old there is no issue at all with a white on a breaker if this is the situation.

As for splices in a panel, this is a wives tale long perpetuated by myth. Yes, it is very true hat you cannot use a panel as a raceway for certain condutors, and splicing is illegal under certain circumstances, but pigtailing is absolutely legal, safe and accepted. Actually it is required in some cases to avoid double tapped breakers.

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

For a straight 240v circuit, such as for a larger wall A/C or shop tool, it is/was very common and legal to run "2-wire" (eg: 12/2). This would put the black and white on a two-pole breaker.

How is it legal to have the neutral connected to the breaker with 240 volt circuit servicing? Is a ground wire used as the neutral? I just couldn't condone this set up unless I had understanding as to why the three wire line (2 hots, 1 neutral) was not used and why it's okay to use two wire.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Peter,

Are you saying that the requirements of 200.7(C), first came about in the 2002 edition? I seem to remember it being much earlier, but I can't verify that at the moment.

As for your comment with regards to splices in the panel, I concur.

The NEC is quite clear that a panel board may not be used as a junction box, however, the simple presence of wire-nuts does not make a panel into a "junction box."

When conductors are spliced in order to lengthen them, or to relieve a "double tap," it is acceptable for this to occur within the electrical panel - the conductors are still being served by the breakers or panel components, which is the purpose of the panel.

When conductors enter the panel and are spliced to conductors which exit the panel, this is generally not acceptable. In this case, the conductors are not being served by components of the panel, and the panel is being used as a junction box for those conductors.

The basic "rule-of-thumb" for the home inspector is that all conductors entering the electrical panel, should terminate at a breaker or terminal bar/lug. There should be no "through and through" conductors within the panel, whether they are spliced or not. As we are not "experts," this condition would warrant a recommendation for further evaluation and/or correction.

[ccbrands1]

Originally Posted by nwagner

How is it legal to have the neutral connected to the breaker with 240 volt circuit servicing? Is a ground wire used as the neutral? I just couldn't condone this set up unless I had understanding as to why the three wire line (2 hots, 1 neutral) was not used and why it's okay to use two wire.

Nope.

The ground wire would be used for ground.
A 240V circuit does not require a dedicated neutral to work properly.

[Greg Fretwell]

There is nothing in the code about splices in the panelboard enclosure and a splice does not increase wire count in fill calculations.
The code 312.8 really quibbles on using the panelboard enclosure for conductors passing through. It says

"... unless adequate space for this purpose is provided..."

and then goes on to specify some, virtually impossible to determine, specifications for available space.

"The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space."

Generally, as an inspector, I just look at the workmanship and whether the resulting installation is servicable. I wouldn't get too concerned about a few "foreign" wires passing through if the box wasn't crowded to the point that you couldn't easily work in there or sort out what was going on.

[Greg Fretwell]

It should be noted that you can only reidentify a white wire in a cable. If this is wire in pipe you need to use another color for ungrounded conductors.
This is only to give people using 2 wire (with ground) the ability to run a 240v circuit. I have seen red/black/bare romex but it is very rare.

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by ccbrands1

Nope.

The ground wire would be used for ground.
A 240V circuit does not require a dedicated neutral to work properly.

Used current has to go somewhere, so the ground is basically a neutral?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by nwagner

Used current has to go somewhere, so the ground is basically a neutral?

Actually, the "neutral" is the unused "hot" conductor as the voltage alternates between the 120V legs. A separate neutral conductor would only carry any unbalanced portion of the load.

[ccbrands1]

Originally Posted by nwagner

Used current has to go somewhere, so the ground is basically a neutral?

Anyone can jump in and correct me.

the neutral on a 240v circuit would be designed to carry the difference between the two "hot" wires.

since both "hot" wires are 120v, there is no difference to carry, therefore negating the need for a dedicated neutral on a 240v circuit

[ccbrands1]

Originally Posted by jpope

Actually, the "neutral" is the unused "hot" conductor as the voltage alternates between the 120V legs. A separate neutral conductor would only carry any unbalanced portion of the load.

This is a much more precise and concise way of what I was trying to say.

Jeff's always smooth with a capital SMOO.

thanks again...

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

The code 312.8 really quibbles on using the panelboard enclosure for conductors passing through. It says and then goes on to specify some, virtually impossible to determine, specifications for available space.

I have had this discussion with electrical inspectors, veteran home inspectors, manufacturers reps and electrical contractors, and while I agree with your logic Greg, I will tell you where I stand, and it has to do with the interpretation of this statement within the code.

"... unless adequate space for this purpose is provided..."

Where I stand as a home inspector (electrical experts have much more latitude than the HI here) - if conductors enter the electrical panel (load center) and do not terminate within the enclosure, I will recommend verification that the application/installation is acceptable.

Here is my conclusion based on many conversations and debates on this matter (and remember, I like to stand behind the most restrictive interpretation and let the experts loosen it up).

"Adequate space" IS NOT provided - per the manufacturer. NO SPACE is PROVIDED by the manufacturer for through and through conductors, splice or no splice - in other words - they are designed as load centers only, and space is PROVIDED for use as load centers only.

If the equipment is listed as a load center/raceway, then space IS provided for that purpose. Then we fall back onto the capacity limits defined by the NEC.

It's much easier for me to let you, Greg, decide whether or not the installation is acceptable

[Greg Fretwell]

It all depends on the enclosure. If you look at a catalog you can find identical panelboards in different sized enclosures. Most of the extra space is wire bending space more than simply extra room for "fill".
You really don't know what you have until you put the breakers in there and see what wires are installed.