Wire size?

[nbhi]

Well put Marc on #15 post

[Christopher Currins]

A standard wire gauge.

[David A. Andersen]

Without some dataplate information on the equipment connected on the other end of that wire, calling anything out would be unjust, in my opinion.

Yea, and we don't know the wire size either.
There is a bunch of no-no's in the PIC. I will assume the worst.

Thanks.

ps. I don't call anything out unless I can show an actual overload. So I'll just keep away from code enforcement and stick to the facts.

[David A. Andersen]

Are you allowed, as home inspectors, to call out items for further evaluation that you're simply confused by? That is to say, if something just strikes you as weird, odd, or abnormal, but you can't put your finger on exactly why, is it permissible to call it out? Just wondering, because that might explain some of the stuff I get called in to look at.

Yup!

Yes I do.
And no one will be calling you when I do.

Code is a minimum requirement so I could care less about it.
When I see an application that is wrong for my reasons and the client also does not like the reasoning behind it, they don't have to buy the house. That is all the enforcement I need. If the seller wants to call you in to fight about it, that's their choice, but my client still dosen't need to buy the house.

No one is putting #14 on a 50 amp breaker in any of my houses. I have MY reasons and that's all that matters.

No one is going to back stab a wall outlet in my house either. I don't care what your code says.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

If you feel this way, you really need to bone up on your education a bit.

It can be completely proper, safe, and legal to have a "20 amp wire" ( ) coming from a 50 amp breaker for certain types of motor operated loads. You can have a breaker, for instance, 300% larger than what it would seem like the conductor can handle for a motor load. There are instances where you an have overcurrent protection up to 800% larger than what it would seem like the wire could handle.

Without some dataplate information on the equipment connected on the other end of that wire, calling anything out would be unjust, in my opinion.

Are you allowed, as home inspectors, to call out items for further evaluation that you're simply confused by? That is to say, if something just strikes you as weird, odd, or abnormal, but you can't put your finger on exactly why, is it permissible to call it out? Just wondering, because that might explain some of the stuff I get called in to look at.

Here's an article that covers the subject of this message. See the parts covering calculations for the sizes of overcurrent devices and wire sizes.

[Greg Fretwell]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Yup!

Code is a minimum requirement so I could care less about it.
When I see an application that is wrong for my reasons and the client also does not like the reasoning behind it, they don't have to buy the house. That is all the enforcement I need. If the seller wants to call you in to fight about it, that's their choice, but my client still dosen't need to buy the house.

No one is putting #14 on a 50 amp breaker in any of my houses. I have MY reasons and that's all that matters.

No one is going to back stab a wall outlet in my house either. I don't care what your code says.

No wonder "home inspectors" get such a bad reputation among electrical professionals.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

No wonder "home inspectors" get such a bad reputation among professional inspectors.

Careful there Greg. I am a professional inspector.

The reason home inspectors get a "bad rap" (by anyone), is that there are many "under-educated" inspectors. With the rapid growth of our profession over the last few years, there has also been a boom in education providers. Many of which fall far short of the standards that would produce a competent "apprentice" - if you will.

Are you allowed, as home inspectors, to call out items for further evaluation that you're simply confused by?

Whenever you read a report that recommends "further evaluation," you can bet the inspector is confused, or just doesn't know. That's what the phrase "further evaluation" implies, regardless of the inspectors knowledge base.

[Greg Fretwell]

Sorry Jeff Perhaps I should have said "electrical professionals' I will edit the post

[Greg Fretwell]

40 amp breaker, 12 ga wire ... any questions?

[Greg Fretwell]

OK another one wired for 120v
120v single pole breaker 30a (could even be 35 if they made one), 14ga wire

any questions?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Sorry Jeff Perhaps I should have said "electrical professionals' I will edit the post

No worries Greg, I get it. It holds true for all professions and trades. There are under-qualified personnel throughout the industry that reflect badly on their given profession.

[Greg Fretwell]

Hopefully things will get better. Here in Florida anyone with a clipboard and a flashlight could call themselves a home inspector and all they needed was a $30 county occupational license ... and that wasn't even being enforced.
They did put in home inspector licensing this year but anyone who says they are already doing it gets grandfathered in.
I hope they will go to testing, CEUs and some real certification like code inspectors have had to do since 1995.
BTW who pays for this "evaluation"?
I know, as a seller, if I had to hire an electrician to tell me what I knew was OK was OK the inspector would be getting the bill and if he didn't reimburse me he would be talking to a DBPR investigator.

[nbhi]

Greg
On your post #24, the pic. shows 23.0amp.
Isn't 12awg rated for 20amp?
It would have to be a wire size of 10 awg, correct, not 12awg?

[David A. Andersen]

No wonder "home inspectors" get such a bad reputation among electrical professionals.

And why would that be?

First point: state law and SOP says we do not enforce code.

Second point: evaluation of electrical systems capacity and design is not a requirement of home inspectors (state law, SOP).

Third point: home inspectors report what they see. How many code compliant electrical systems have you guys found with significant deficiencies, to include overloaded circuits?

Because the system design complies with the building code, does this mean the deficiencies do not exist?

The point I was making is that the deficiency is a deficiency when it does not function as intended. This does not cover non-compliant electrical code. It is very simple in most cases (and this is one of them), to prove deficiency due to overloaded circuit regardless of compliance electrical code. If in fact the wire is undersized (which is the initial question of this thread), there are other ways to determine this by simply turning on the equipment and make a a further evaluation.

However, home inspection standards do not require this evaluation to be performed. This is an elected practice adopted by individual home inspectors. When you see a 50 and breaker and it appears as a 14 gauge (or undetermined) wire, maybe the home inspector that does not do load evaluations/infrared photography etc. needs to have these adverse conditions further evaluated.

Again, in this particular thread the initial photograph indicates numerous things that can be questioned (even with a lack of sufficient information to make an evaluation whatsoever). So, like yourselves, I tend to assume. In my geographical region a red wire in an electrical panel indicates a conductor on a 240V circuit ( in this case using two individual 15 amp circuit breakers). In my area, circuit breakers in the main electric service panel feed power to subpanels at the indoor/outdoor equipment. In most cases these subpanels are broken down to additional circuits. In this case we don't even know what type of equipment is attached at the other end. If I were to assume in my geographical area, seeing as it is a 240 V circuit, it is more than likely a heat pump or an electric furnace with/without air-conditioning. In my area I have never seen a properly installed electrical conductor on an HVAC circuit sized like this.

Other inconsistencies in the photograph are neutral and ground wires attached to the same terminal.

So, to elaborate on my short initial post, further information and evaluation is required. Additional investigation should be made by the home inspector or if outside of their scope of inspection should be evaluated by another. If they do not have any means of determining an overloaded circuit, it would not be prudent to wait around for indications to surface (such as melted conductor insulation, discolored terminal connections).

Just as there are home inspectors that do their own further evaluation and report the outcome, there are home inspectors that hang around the building code and others that hang around and report existing conditions.

So who are you talking to? Who are you implying to be incompetent or under qualified? If a home inspector, regardless of their experience does not have the answer when something looks out of the ordinary, it is prudent that they mention it in their report and have the condition further evaluated. Maybe at their cost.

You electrical guys that feel home inspector should be doing the electricians work, are probably the ones that badmouth home inspectors when they request further evaluation.

Just because a bunch of you guys are electrical gurus, there is no reason to imply that someone needs to learn and enforce the national electric code. Someone asked a question, answer the specific question posted!
Which in this case is what size is this electrical conductor?

Joe T. posted an article with a specific answer to this question. Several of you just clouded the issue with assumptions and code compliance issues. The answer is in the information provided on the manufacturers data plate which was not provided.

If you want to condemn anyone, condemn them for not gathering sufficient information to make a determination. They can easily go back and get it.

If my client or myself asked an electrician or HVAC contractor to further evaluate the existing circuitry in the service panel I would expect a reply similar to what Joe T. provided in his article, not that there is nothing wrong and the home inspector is full of crap and this was a waste of my time coming out here. A service call is money, I guess it's below some of you.

[David A. Andersen]

Hopefully things will get better.

Me too! Last time I was in Florida I almost got electrocuted at a gas pump due to improper electrical practices.

They did put in home inspector licensing this year but anyone who says they are already doing it gets grandfathered in.

If you really read it you probably would find that grandfathering only addresses pre-licensing educational requirements.

BTW who pays for this "evaluation"?

As I posted while you were writing, sometimes the home inspector.

I know, as a seller, if I had to hire an electrician to tell me what I knew was OK was OK the inspector would be getting the bill and if he didn't reimburse me he would be talking to a DBPR investigator.

If you are the seller and you wanted to sell your house to that particular client maybe you would be paying for the bill. Otherwise, just terminate your purchase and sale agreement. That's the point.