AC condenser undersized - HI said nothing - to blame?

[jhugenroth]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Where here does it say anything about any of that?

I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. the central cooling equipment using normal operating controls.


Then what are we supposed to do with any information we gather when we DO "inspect", i.e., "run" the system?

Why even run the darn thing then if we don't report on any noted deficiencies, and believe me, not cooling properly could be deemed an deficiency, ya think?

[David A. Andersen]

What is proper cooling?

When you turn on a light at a light switch and it doesn't come on:

Do you run to town and get a new lightbulb?

Do you get a voltage meter and test the circuit?

Do you determine if it's a two way switch on a three-way circuit?

Do you dismantle the lighting fixture to see if there are burnt wires or bad connections or if the lightbulb was loose?

Do you dismantle the switch and do an Ohm's test on the device?

If the light does come on:

Do you determine the wattage draw through the circuit in comparison to the lightbulb in the socket?

Do you do a voltage drop test.

Do you check the luminaires and manufacturers data sheet for the lightbulb?

We run the darn thing to see if things turn on...

The extent of our testing is to feel the air and see if it is warmer or cooler than the ambient temperature within the house.

This example may seem far-fetched but it is exactly what a real HVAC analysis does and it is something that home inspectors do not do.

[jhugenroth]

Originally Posted by [dandersen[/b

;675689]What is proper cooling?

I would think the example cited above where the upper story was not cooling would be a good example of improper cooling.

Maybe I misunderstood your intent, but it seemed you were disagreeing with Bill Siegel's post about a HI being negligent for not reporting that.

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by dedwards

I suppose a better question here is, "How many inspectors go over what the inspection covers, to what depth and the limitations of a visual inspection" before they ever start. It only takes a couple of minutes and for me has been a central part of NOT having this kind of misunderstanding. Then further explain that anything beyond that requires the services of a licensed tradesman in that discipline. Then I go over this again at the end when we are finished. Is the inspector in too much of a hurry to get that on site report generated and get to that next inspection and doesn't take the time to make sure the customer understands ALL of the issues with the home? Or does the inspector just provide the customer with a copy of the SOP, which they know the customer will never read, and hope for the best.

It is the easiest thing in the world for an inspector to simply say, not just in writing, but actually SAY to their customer, " I AM NOT QUALIFIED" to make that kind of determination and you will need the services of a licensed HVAC (or electrician, or plumber, etc.) contractor. Trying to appear that we know everything is what is the root cause of this. No one wants to admit they don't know something and it is going to start biting people in the ***, or already has.

One of the greatest post I've ever read here at NACHI.

[Mark Thorman]

I'm sorry but I can not understand this cover your xxx at the expense of our clients best interests mentality. If you are a certified inspector or master inspector you should know the minimum system requirements for all the systems of a home. SOP's are weak, the buyer does not need us to come in and just turn stuff on and say it functions, I'm done, pay me. The original post is in regard to a significantly under sized condenser. No technical expertise is needed, just a basic understanding of what it takes to cool a house of that size. Stop defending sub qualified inspectors. Raise the bar and everyone will be happy (except some agents).

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

[Tim Spargo]

Originally Posted by Mark Thorman

I'm sorry but I can not understand this cover your xxx at the expense of our clients best interests mentality. If you are a certified inspector or master inspector you should know the minimum system requirements for all the systems of a home. SOP's are weak, the buyer does need us to come in and just turn stuff on and say it functions, I'm done, pay me. The original post is in regard to a significantly under sized condenser. No technical expertise is needed, just a basic understanding of what it takes to cool a house of that size. Stop defending sub qualified inspectors. Raise the bar and everyone will be happy (except some agents).

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

Good Point Mark.

I gave the benefit of the doubt of the sizing when I posted the question/topic. I felt there were more than one reasons to have "punted" this one if I had done the inspection. We can't all agree.

I thought it was a "bit" undersized as well. This topic of "sizing" is a bit tricky, but IMO the example I laid out... wasn't. All things aside, if a home appears un-altered, I would agree that being concerned with the size of a system is beyond a HI. There were other aspects of the post...

All the variables of the system aside... the fact the home had alterations/additions, the poor cooling taking place at the time of inspection coupled with the size of the unit would have had me "punt" this one to an HVAC contractor for review.

[Mark Thorman]

I think Texas has the right idea. If you look at the nachi (and the other nationally recognized inspector association whose name can not be mentioned) and look at the Texas standards. I would hire the Texas inspector first.

Texas:
(b) Cooling equipment other than evaporative coolers.
The inspector shall:
(1) report the type of system(s); and
(2) report as Deficient:
(A) inoperative unit(s);
(B) inadequate cooling as demonstrated by its performance in the reasonable judgment of the inspector;
(C) inadequate access and clearances;
(D) noticeable vibration of the blower fan or condensing fan;
(E) deficiencies in the condensate drain and auxiliary/secondary pan and drain system;
(F) water in the auxiliary/secondary drain pan;
(G) a primary drain pipe that terminates in a sewer vent;
(H) missing or deficient refrigerant pipe insulation;
(I) dirty evaporator or condensing coils, where accessible;
(J) damaged casings on the coils;
(K) a condensing unit lacking adequate clearances or air circulation or that has deficiencies in the condition of fins, location, levelness, or elevation above ground surfaces;
(L) deficiencies in mounting and operation of window or wall units; and
(M) deficiencies in thermostats.

verses Nachi

2.5. Cooling

I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. the central cooling equipment using normal operating controls.

II. The inspector is not required to:

A. determine the uniformity, temperature, flow, balance, distribution, size, capacity, BTU, or supply adequacy of the cooling system.
B. inspect window units, through-wall units, or electronic air filters.
C. operate equipment or systems if exterior temperature is below 60 degrees Fahrenheit, or when other circumstances are not conducive to safe operation, or may damage the equipment.
D. inspect or determine thermostat calibration, cooling anticipation, or automatic setbacks or clocks.
E. examine electrical current, coolant fluids or gases, or coolant leakage.

Who would you hire?

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

[Michael Larson]

(B) inadequate cooling as demonstrated by its performance in the reasonable judgment of the inspector

And how on earth would one determine that on a 70 degree day?

[Doug Edwards, CMI]

(B) inadequate cooling as demonstrated by its performance in the reasonable judgment of the inspector

Oh no, that is not subjective statement, especially when the inspector doesn't know s**t from shoe polish of how an HVAC system even works. Most think its black magic or something judging from comments just on this board.

[David A. Andersen]

I would think the example cited above where the upper story was not cooling would be a good example of improper cooling.

It can just as easily be the result of improper building performance and have anything to do with the operation of the HVAC equipment.

All the variables of the system aside... the fact the home had alterations/additions, the poor cooling taking place at the time of inspection coupled with the size of the unit would have had me "punt" this one to an HVAC contractor for review.

Actually if I walk into any house that has three floors and one HVAC system, unless it has a computer room to control it it's wrong.

As in most cases, there is insufficient information to formulate any decision here. We can't be speculating without any facts.

[Mark Thorman]

Originally Posted by dedwards

(B) inadequate cooling as demonstrated by its performance in the reasonable judgment of the inspector

Oh no, that is not subjective statement, especially when the inspector doesn't know s**t from shoe polish of how an HVAC system even works. Most think its black magic or something judging from comments just on this board.

Then they should be trained and tested before they can claim to be a Professional Home Inspector.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

In most states, the sole person LEGALLY qualified to calculate the size of an HVAC system is a PE.

This is far beyond the scope of a home inspection. Providing the HI colored between the lines, he should be okay.

I can almost guarantee that what David rattled off the top of his head were things not learned in any HI class...

__________________________________

Joe -

You give a PE too much credit. Most that I know are not qualified to do this. I've lived in 8 states in my life AND have NOT yet seen one where ONLY a PE is legally qualified to calculate the size of an HVAC system.

This may BE the norm where you live (or it may NOT), BUT comments like this from a veteran inspector can really confuse new inspectors if they believe them.

[Brian E. Kelly]

My AC is currently not working properly, and I did not perform any "tests" whatsoever to determine this..

The tech is coming out at 08:00 to determine the cause and rectify the situation.

AC is pretty common here in Phoenix and pretty much even someone's Mom can tell if the AC is working or not. It seems other parts of the country AC may be a little trickier to operate.

[Bruce A. King]

Heating and air is one of the main items that separate the minimal inspectors from the top rated ones. I think most that participate on this board are looking to be the best in their area while the minimal guy's have their reports done by 4 pm and could care less about anything other than pleasing agents.

What David is saying is technically correct but what he is not saying is how to report things like a "warm upstairs" condition.

I had a similar situation and simply reported the fact that the upstairs was warmer than what I normally see and to have an HVAC tech check it out. I did not state what was wrong even though I knew it had a problem with the zoning panel.

The client ended up getting an entire new system paid for by the seller since the sellers tech had no idea how to repair the zoning panel but knew how to install a new system.

[David A. Andersen]

The client ended up getting an entire new system paid for by the seller since the sellers tech had no idea how to repair the zoning panel but knew how to install a new system.

Oh my!
Was this one of those professionals we are supposed to defer to?
The one Billy B wants to "sign off" on the job?


Had New construction last week with a zoned system.
No barometric damper.
They looked at me cross eyed when I inquired where it was...