Play: "Spot the problems"

[Douglas Cossar]

Originally Posted by brepanshek

Hey guys, question for you all. When I see all these problems like this (like I did the other day) I learned not to verbally address all the problems to the client and realtor present, it just over burdens them. If I see so many issues, I recommend a qualified HVAC tech to correct problems I document and any other things that they may happen upon. My question is how do you address this when you find so many things wrong that if you stated them all vocally I found that the client gets panicy and the realtor getting hot under the collar with you.( And this was what you found with just the furnace) before you know it, your painting a picture to everyone that this home is a mess of problems and handy work. Please help me with your ideas on how you would inspect a home when finding so many problems in 1 or 2 areas alone. Thanks

What Pat said!

I point out the DANGEROUS stuff and suggest they get the whole thing evaluated further.

Case in point- I would tell the customer there are serious issues with the installation of this unit. Have it evaluated before closing.

Cheers

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jsieg

Can I use these photo's in some Power Point Presentations?

I want permission before I just go grabbing things.

Or better yet would you like to E-mail them to me?

ME TOO, PAT!

Come on. I am your President!

Pretty PLEEEEESE!

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by pbolliger

Yep being too "verbal" can be dangerous... What happens when you forget to put it in your report?...
When I encouter a situation like this , I tell the client it needs a complete evaluation by a qualified contractor and why.. BUT if it is life threatening then the whole place gets my spiel.. IF they (Realtor)don't like it ...one phone call to my local gas company trainer/ contact and the gas supply just may be locked OFF until repairs are made. Sorry that is what my training is for... Not for saving a commission but for saving lives..
I had a realtor whine and tell my client things like this where not a big issue.. I took over at that point... Sorry Realtor.. shut the hell up and look at my credentials...

Now if the whole place is a "POS" or "Dozer bait" then we are having a heck of a day and a "novel" to be written up...UGH.. Been there many times..
I bring some "reality" to my client.. I try and understand what they are hoping to accomplish from this "investment"..
Listen and learn ,get the vibe from them on what they want out of this place.
Primary living , rental income, investment or just "looking"..
Dashing someones dreams is not fun but saving someone a heck of a lot of problems can be very very rewarding..

Pat makes a point that is very important. Please read:

Our Chapter has a special relationship with the local gas company (People's Energy). They give, three or four times a year, a course specifically for home inspectors (and give a $100 discount to NACHI members AND offering 12 hours of state approved CE!). It is 2 days, 6 hours a day (and they supply the food! GOOD FOOD!) complete with classroom theory AND practical work (in a HUGE lab with every single type of gas fired equipment you could EVER imagine.) They teach and then mess up a whole bunch of furnaces, water heaters, stoves, space heaters, boilers and whatever else you can think of.

THEN:

The VP of special projects walks in and gives each of us his PERSONAL phone number and tells us that if we find anything that is a potential danger, and if we run into a Realtor or builder or seller that wants to make trouble or doubts the quality of our training, just give them a call.

One has to remember. If there is a 'serious event', it makes the late news and the gas company gets blamed (can you say 'lawsuit'?).

They come but (real fast) and evaluate the situation. If repairs a are needed, they offer to fix it (for a fee, and for about 80% of what a plumber or licensed HVAC giy would charge). If the party says, "I will call someone, tomorrow.", they just smile and wish them a good day.

Then they shut off the gas.

They keep it off until the problem is fixed and they verify that it is fixed. They refuse to get sued for the lack of knowledge (or urgency) of a Realtor or home owner.

This is a cool thing. The gas company using NACHI inspectors as extensions of their eyes and ears, in a partnership to get these situations fixed AND to keep the public safe, many times, in spite of themselves.

Kudo's to Pat and People's Energy.

[Joe Farsetta]

I agree that there is no sediment leg and that the shutoff valve should be above the union. As to an emergency shutoff switchv, it may be on an opposing wall (which is acceptable). The wire seen to the right of the furnace does not go through the filter, and is likely a thermostat wire, which is low tension. Sloppy, but technically not a problem.

As to combustion air, it cannot be determined from the photo, but if there is a louvered door on this closet, it's fine. Firestop is needed at the ceiling penetration.

Return air ducting may be undersized, but this installation is tied to existing ductwork in the home. The comment regarding a 6' distance for return ducting was insteresting.

Question: Was this installation inspected and approved by the AHJ? If so, the best one can do is to refer it to a licensed HVAC contractor, one of which (I assume), installed this unit.

Heating systems are typically installed wherever they can fit. As ductwork is installed, and phased inspections take place, all involved are aware of the rules and constraints. And, as with most codes, there are exceptions and interpretations.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

I agree that there is no sediment leg and that the shutoff valve should be above the union. As to an emergency shutoff switchv, it may be on an opposing wall (which is acceptable). The wire seen to the right of the furnace does not go through the filter, and is likely a thermostat wire, which is low tension. Sloppy, but technically not a problem.

As to combustion air, it cannot be determined from the photo, but if there is a louvered door on this closet, it's fine. Firestop is needed at the ceiling penetration.

Return air ducting may be undersized, but this installation is tied to existing ductwork in the home. The comment regarding a 6' distance for return ducting was insteresting.

Question: Was this installation inspected and approved by the AHJ? If so, the best one can do is to refer it to a licensed HVAC contractor, one of which (I assume), installed this unit.

Heating systems are typically installed wherever they can fit. As ductwork is installed, and phased inspections take place, all involved are aware of the rules and constraints. And, as with most codes, there are exceptions and interpretations.

Joe FYI (local conditions may vary), in this area we regularly see installations of furnaces that are not right, but have been passed by the AHJ. Cat 4 furnaces with no combustion air pipe run, cat 3 furnaces connected in tandem with conventional draft water heaters and very confined spaces with insufficent combustion air. We have learned that simply putting a louvered door (which is only done about half the time, in any case) do not always allow for enough air. Metal registers, mounted high and low, work much better and allow for more air. This is according to the local gas company.

I have run into many cases where the AHJ inspector is there and approves intallations that are not complient with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing.

There can be a great difference between what the AHJ OKs and what is correct and safe. In any case, we are not code inspectors and have no authority to required, but we can (and should) educate our clients about the proper (and safe) way.

[Patrick Bolliger]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

I agree that there is no sediment leg and that the shutoff valve should be above the union. As to an emergency shutoff switchv, it may be on an opposing wall (which is acceptable). The wire seen to the right of the furnace does not go through the filter, and is likely a thermostat wire, which is low tension. Sloppy, but technically not a problem.

Joe, That was the power to the unit not the thermostat wire. It did not go through the filter. It was "Plugged" in a light fixture ( not in view) with a standard extension cord cut and wire nut . No proper electrical wiring was present.

As to combustion air, it cannot be determined from the photo, but if there is a louvered door on this closet, it's fine. Firestop is needed at the ceiling penetration.

That would not be acceptable . The return air duct is clearly wrong and placing a louvered door in that location would not only create more of a problem but it would contribute to the poor performance and even assist in Carbon Monoxide production.
Wood louvered doors generally have to be considered 25% free area!
Metal louvers are 75% free area.
1 square inch for every 1000 BTU's then figure on the loss of area.

Peoples Energy:

"A return air opening cannot be installed in the same room as the furnance.
Return air ducts and combustion air openings are to be installed so that they do not interfere with each other's function."
Per MFG guidlines its wrong wrong Plus:

Code check page 7 (HVAC)
UMC 906.6.5
IRC 1602.3 Return air (Must be 10ft. min. from natural-draft appliance combustion chamber/draft hood or wood-burning fireplace.


Fire stop at ceiling yes BUT this combination of venting types is a problem
Improper connections and slope. The "chimney" was tar-ed at the roof penetration.. Even with "B" vent the gap is wrong...

This unit was NOT installated by a licensed qualified HVAC professional. Its a hack job clearly done on the sly.


Return air ducting may be undersized, but this installation is tied to existing ductwork in the home. The comment regarding a 6' distance for return ducting was insteresting.

The picture does not clearly show everything. There is NO return air "Duct" per definition of a return air duct. . That box off the right side is the "return air duct" .
The requirement per code and local utility safety are not here. This mess is done without understanding the concepts of operation of this unit. The powerful "pull" from the blower motor ( via open return air duct) would be strong enough to influence the burners.

Question: Was this installation inspected and approved by the AHJ? If so, the best one can do is to refer it to a licensed HVAC contractor, one of which (I assume), installed this unit.

Most likey NOT AHJ inspected or installed by a licensed HVAC contractor. If that were the case I would have found a sticker/ tag (you hope) for service by the installer/ company/ contractor.

Heating systems are typically installed wherever they can fit. As ductwork is installed, and phased inspections take place, all involved are aware of the rules and constraints. And, as with most codes, there are exceptions and interpretations.

Not the case here. This was a "replacement" heating system to deal with the non -functioning boiler in the basement. The supply ducting from this FAU was installed open through out the living space.

Someone did this who has enough knowledge to do this kind of work but is not fully versed in installing natural gas burning appliances.

Hence the new 2007 law for all buildings with living spaces to have a CO detector is a start. (The authorities simply do not have enough staff /personnel to inspect/ find these unsafe/ unlicensed/ unprofessional installations. I would even venture to say this is not that rare. Many questionable installations are done in Chicago on a regular basis.

[Greg Veal]

Patrick,
This looks like a recent changeout as apposed to new house installation. That would answer the first question of how did it get past the municpal inspector.
Next, I see-
-Singlewall vent piping through drywall ceiling with no firestop (Must be B' vent material with 1" min. clearance and firestop)
-No dripleg in gas line (needed to collect condensation & debris)
-L/V t'stat wiring thru R/A filter track - no protective rubber gromet
-Open R/A plenum-Front- Combustion air and flame rollout possible
-No visible Hi/Lo combustion air in closet (from an outside source)
-Clearance of Furnace from combustible materials, especially front panel
-No Plenum or Ductwork insulation or mastic/sealant at joints; although no insulation is needed if ductwork is incapsulated within conditioned space
-I don't see a Cond. Pump, Ref.Lines - I assume no A/C is installed
-Bottom panel critical for fan switch operation and to avoid backdrafting or flame rollout during operation, even with an induced draft fan system on this 80%+/- AFUE rated furnace
-I'm probably missing something else, but...

GoodLuck

[Joe Farsetta]

Pat,

I'll have to disagree with you with regard to louvered doors. Some wooden louvered doors can allow for about 85% total louvered opening, which is more than sufficient. As to clearances, sometimes there are simply insufficient working space in these utility rooms, which the architect, AHJ, and gas company in our parts okay on a regular basis.

I was mistaken, and thought that the ducting to the lower right exited the room. I didnt realize until looking at the photo again that the return was in the same room. In most raised ranch hmes with forced air systems, the return is on the opposite side of the utility room wall, less than 2' from the furnace intake. Louvered door adjacent to the return duct in many cases.

And, we can both agree that this installation was poorly executed...

[A Dan Leleika]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Pat,

I'll have to disagree with you with regard to louvered doors. Some wooden louvered doors can allow for about 85% total louvered opening, ...

Wow, How do you change the laws of physics for some wood louvre's and not others.?? (they all have the same amount of gap between them)

Wood Louvre's only allow for 25% of its total area for air flow. This is how it is. If you have 100 inch louvred vent that is made of wood, it only gives you 25 inches of free air flow for combustion air and not 100 inches of free air flow..You can't change this fact. This is so very important to know if you say that the combustion air is ok. These calculations are imperative and someones life could depend on it.

If you have a metal louvered vent that is 100 inches, then you have 75 inches of air flow for combustion air.

http://www.codecheck.com/pg21_22mechanical.html (7th line down)

[Keith R. Braun]

Nothing personal, but I think you fellas are trying to get too technical in regards to louver sizes and free areas. Unless you are a P.E. or an expert in this area I would say, "Keep it simple." There is more than enough "not right" here to recommend corrections be made by a qualified HVAC person. Absolve yourselves of liability.