4 Point Inspections

[Doug Edwards]

A couple a month is good for gas money, if not raise your prices.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Doug -- that is about it

rlb

[wsiegel]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Bill

Understand -- How should a home owner handle repairs that do not require the services of a contractor - say well within the skill level of the home owner??

If this becomes a problem for me I will just charge for 2 four point inspections.

As you say, we can't always give away the store for every hard luck case or we will be out of business.

Not much profit in this type of inspection to start with.

rlb

Richard,

I hear what you are saying. Most of the electrical problems I come across will require an electricain. Most homeowners cannot repair improperly bonded boxes, double taps, install GFCI's, replace boxes, raise weatherheads, etc. My theory is, do it right (use the electricain) and let him sign off that everything is correct. If not, expect a call from the insurance company when the handy homeowner repair causes a fire and you signed off on it on that little old 4-point form.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Bill

Might as well have the electrician do the inspection to start with

Looks like a HI is only good if everything is OK. I am sure that any good tradesman will be able to find repair work if he looks hard enough

Perhaps now would be a good time to ask -- What issues would you put in a report that would be an insurance killer???

I have never seen a list from any insurance company of defects that are deal killers

I did get ask if there were any dogs, swimming pool, trampoline on the property from All State.

rlb

[wsiegel]

Richard,

I only report what I see. I do not make a judgement as to what would be a deal killer. One of the actual forms from Citizens for the electrical asks if the home is up to current code. That kind of binds you to list all the defects.

Just out of curiousity, would you report a converted fuse box? I see those all the time and know that many of the inspectors are not reporting this. They only report on the presense of breakers or fuses. And what about low service drops. Many inspectors do not report an 8 foot drop. I never look to kill the deal, but I also am going to cover my rear end.

You, as well a I, are capable of reporting the electrical on a 4-point. If that were the case, then we should not be reporting on electrical during an insepction. It is our job to report defects. It is for the protection of the customer (and our pocketbooks should something go wrong).

I think the real problem here is that inspectors go too lightyly on an insuance inspection because we dont want to see anyone denied insurance. But on the other hand, missing something that could be a potential hazard, whether fire or safety, does not serve our client or the insurance industry. Just a case in point - how many fires have you heard of because one outlet in the home was not grounded. I dont know about you, but I dont want to have to live with something like that. I do work with all my clients on these inspection

[Bruce M. Graham]

William,
Are you listing defects on your 4 points or an overall rating such as, good, fair, poor? My understanding was that the insurance compaines don't want to know all the issuses just a rating.

[wsiegel]

The following is taken from one of the form directly from Citizens (they sent this form to me). It does ask for a rating, but it also asks for any deficiencies. The question is - what dificiencies do you list? I list what I see. To me, a good system would have no deficiencies. Can you list a system as good if t doesnt have GFCI's installed, or double taps? I dont know where you draw the line on this because no one has set up clear guide lines.

I use the ASHI form. That is check list form, but at the end of the electrical section it has a section for comments. Once again, there is no guideline for what should or should not be listed.

I have also attached the Citizens Electrical form that they send out to Electricians to use. It asks if the system is up to current code, asks for a rating, and asks for deficiencies. I guess we can all now get into the debate on what good, fair, or poor.


1. Electrical




Year service was updated__________ Total Amperage of Service_____________
Is the system sufficient for the load requirement? Yes_______ No_________ Is there any Knob and Tube Wiring in use? Yes_________ No__________

Is there any exposed or unsafe wiring? Yes________ No_________
Condition of Electrical Service? Good________ Fair_______ Poor________
Are there any deficiencies which need correcting? Yes_________ No__________


If yes please describe__________________________________________ ________
__________________________________________________ __________________
__________________________________________________ __________________
Were these deficiencies corrected? Yes______ No___________

Aluminum wiring (not the outside connection to the weatherhead. Yes_____ No____

All the electrical connections have been repaired with Copalum Crimp Connectors.
Yes_____ No____

Electrician Signature_____________________
Electrician licensed number_________________

[Richard L. Bennett]

Bill

I have never heard of a fire caused by an ungrounded outlet. Remember many things that we plug into an outlet do not have grounds. I am sure that somewhere a fire has resulted from a ungrounded outlet.

Fuse box converted for breakers - I would report as needing addition evaluation as to mfg requirements and specifications.

I do report if some breakers are of a different mfg. and that they MIGHT not be approved for use in the panel that they are installed in,

On the code issue - if I find ONE violation the answer is NO. If I can not find a violation the answer is YES. The code used will be the same that the local building inspector used AND normally the local min. housing standard. Hardwired smoke detectors are local code in most areas that I inspect and they do get tested.

Low service drops do not get reported because in my area this is not under the control of the home owner but under the control of the power company. They must approve it before they hook up. It is their cable

One of my largest hits in my area is that of NO heat. Sometimes just putting batteries in the programmable thermostat which does not require a licensed contractor. I do not know the "Why" at time of inspection.

After doing some thinking on this 4 point subject I am liking the idea of X $$$ if everything is ok and 2 X if I must reinspect.

I would think that this should make everyone happy and also would give the client a good feeling about his home.

Many times I will bring to the attention of the home owner other items not related that need maintenance - Just part of the service

A lot of these items are a matter of personal choice but in the end. Does the client have a good picture of his home.

If he does not like my report he can always burn it and get another inspector


rlb

[Greg Bell]

This is the form that I use for homes over 50 years old being insured with Citizens.

http://www.bellinspection.com/files/Four_Point_Form.doc

As stated earlier in this thread there are many changes that are going to take place over the next few months. These changes should help out our profession given the current situation with the resale market.

[wsiegel]

"Low service drops do not get reported because in my area this is not under the control of the home owner but under the control of the power company. They must approve it before they hook up. It is their cable."

Actuallly, this is under the control of the home owner. It is up to them to supply the proper mast and FPL will provide the wires.
I had a talk with one of the FPL guys a while back. There were installing service to a home that had an eight foot drop (an older home that was being upgraded and re-connected). His response what that they dont care about the code - they just hook them up. He said it was up to the city to enforce the code - not FPL. Go figure.

[wsiegel]

'Fuse box converted for breakers - I would report as needing addition evaluation as to mfg requirements and specifications.'

There was an earlier post on this subject. There are conversion kits out there that have been tested and UL listed for this purpose. They are supposed to be marked as such. If they are not, your box is no longer UL listed, nor is there any warranty from the manufacturer should something go wrong. To me - that is a must list item and the box needs to be replaced.

[Zoe Fackler]

I am late in replying to this but your information is totally incorrect.
Please go to www.Citizens.com, choose agent, then forms and instructions. Under rules of conduct for older homes you will find that the ONLY contractor requirement for the Homes over 50 is a State Lc Electrician.

A State Lc Roofer is only required if there are previous claims, the roof is more than 35 years old, or their drive by guy/gal finds issues with the roof.

Individual agents throughout the state interpret what information is required and who can do the inspection. Some even claim that the " Citizens Electrical Form" MUST be filled out. The form at the very top plainly states that it is an example of information required and does NOT have to be used.

ICC Certified Inspectors have not been official approved by Citizens although so far they are not rejecting their credentials. If there were a letter of acceptance from Citizens in writing - I would love to have a copy

The folks on the East coast have told me that info such as distance to Fire Hydrant and Fire station and construction type and age are not required. But- you’d have a hard time getting any agent on the West coast to accept a report without that info.
Some Inspectors refuse to project the remaining life of a roof - that may be where the Roofer misnomer comes from.
We've been doing these inspections with the aid of State Lc Electricians for 10 years. JUA, Cypress, Mac Neil, Citizens - have tightened requirements as they have evolved.
When in doubt - make the Insurance Agent provide an example of the information and licensing required - OR- go straight to the underwriter.
Zoe
Fackler Home Inspection, Inc.

[waksell]

Originally Posted by zfackler

Please go to www.Citizens.com, choose agent, then forms and instructions.

Are you sure you have the correct link? It took me to a Canadian bank, not an insurance company.

[wsiegel]

took me there too

[gbeaumont]

Hi to all,

here is the correct link: http://www.citizensfla.com/

Regards

Gerry