FL DOH / EPA study radon Southwest Florida

[Doug Wall]

We have plenty of elevated radon in Southwest Florida. Home Inspectors should recommend a radon test on every home purchase. Why else would the EPA give the Florida Department of Health a special grant to study the causes?

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/environment/community/radon/
“The Florida Department of Health is conducting a study, funded by a United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) grant, to investigate the causes of elevated radon levels in mid and high-rise multi-family residences in Lee and Collier Counties.”

“In some areas of Florida, one out of two homes has excessive amounts of radon”
“RADON IS THE MAIN CAUSE OF LUNG CANCER AMONG NON-SMOKERS”

Florida Law:
“The Department currently requires the certification of individuals and businesses offering radon testing or mitigation.”

Doug Wall
Radon & Mold Professionals
www.radonmoldhelp.com

[gbeaumont]

Hi to all,

interesting link Doug, I can't help but wonder why the State and EPA are interested in mid and high rise buildings, I would expect that any elevated radon levels in uildings of that type to be within the stairwell areas which are mostly well vented.

Regards

Gerry

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by gbeaumont

Hi to all,

interesting link Doug, I can't help but wonder why the State and EPA are interested in mid and high rise buildings, I would expect that any elevated radon levels in uildings of that type to be within the stairwell areas which are mostly well vented.

Regards

Gerry

Where's the aggregate for the concrete come from???? An interesting but scary thought........could it be in the concrete????

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Where's the aggregate for the concrete come from???? An interesting but scary thought........could it be in the concrete????

No not really, by the time the aggregate has been mined, processed, trucked and mixed into the concrete any radon gas would have been long gone as Ra has a very short 1/2 life.

Regards

Gerry

[Jay Schwartz]

Gerry:

The concrete is the problem in parts of SW Florida. Friend of mine needed mitigation. She lived on the 6th floor. Building envelopes are the issue. Most condo owners never open the windows. No way for the gas to escape.

[sprice]

Keep in mind that the Radium-226, which produces the Radon-222 gas has a half-life of 1600 years. The element that produces the Ra-226 is Thorium-230, which has a half-live of ~ 80,000 years. As you work backward even farther, you start at Uranium-238, which has a really crazy half-life of ~4,510,000,000 years. Based on these numbers, I think radon is going to be around for a while.

Regarding the SW FL problem, it isn't isolated to Lee and Collier Counties! We've seen the same thing in GA, NC and TN. Yes, it appears to be the radon emanating from the concrete into the living quarters, but with help. The high readings are almost always associated with very low fresh air exchanges too. By making the buildings super-tight for energy efficiency reasons, another problem is introduced. We're not talking about concrete with enough radiation to make the walls glow, we're talking about a small, but steady amount of radon coming from the massive amounts of concrete surface area in these buildings, getting into a condo or apartment and not getting diluted by fresh air.

I heard that ASHRAE made some changes in 2003 to require a certain amount of fresh air, but there could be a huge number of concrete buildings constructed between the 1970s and now that were designed with maximum energy efficiency in mind. I bet they're not all in the SE US.

Shawn Price
http://radon.com
http://radon-pro.com

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Sounds like these dwellings need dessicant heat wheel energy recovery ventilators

http://www.ultimateair.com/?ref=oikos

For specs of the above ERV, see page 104 of following:
http://www.hvi.org/assets/pdfs/CPD/Sec3_1Jan08.pdf

www.airxchange.com

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Sounds like these dwellings need dessicant heat wheel energy recovery ventilators

http://www.ultimateair.com/?ref=oikos

For specs of the above ERV, see page 104 of following:
http://www.hvi.org/assets/pdfs/CPD/Sec3_1Jan08.pdf

www.airxchange.com

I do agree they could use some system of air change but to think a HRV is required is in my openion more then needed .
These are small aptarments and do have the space or need for this .
This is Florida and I do not think Radon Needs as much air exchange as is done by an HRV.
...Cookie

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by jschwartz1

Gerry:

The concrete is the problem in parts of SW Florida. Friend of mine needed mitigation. She lived on the 6th floor. Building envelopes are the issue. Most condo owners never open the windows. No way for the gas to escape.

Jay, thanks I stand corrected I used to do alot of Ra testing in New England but never had encountered Ra associated with building aggregates. The problem in most areas is that the Ra is comming up through the natural rock.

What strikes me here is, where is the aggregate comming from that is producing those results, there must be some very high natural levels within local rock and gravel quarries.

I guess we never stop learning.

Regards

Gerry

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I do agree they could use some system of air change but to think a HRV is required is in my openion more then needed .
These are small aptarments and do have the space or need for this .
This is Florida and I do not think Radon Needs as much air exchange as is done by an HRV.
...Cookie

Maybe yes/ maybe no! It would depend on the cost of cooling and how much ventilation will be needed to meet the recommended radon levels.

A large part of the cost of cooling in this part of the country is the latent moisture load......just to condense the water out of the air before you can substantially lower the sensible temperatures takes a lot of power.

The heat wheel dessicant passively removes a portion of the moisture from incoming fresh air and transfers it to the exhaust air, lowering the cost of cooling cheaply. A good economic analysis from someone working HVAC in that area would be interesting.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Maybe yes/ maybe no! It would depend on the cost of cooling and how much ventilation will be needed to meet the recommended radon levels.

A large part of the cost of cooling in this part of the country is the latent moisture load......just to condense the water out of the air before you can substantially lower the sensible temperatures take a lot of power.

The heat wheel dessicant passively removes a portionof the moisture from incoming fresh air and transfers it to the exhaust air, lowering the cost of cooling cheaply. A good economic analysis from someone working HVAC in that area would be interesting.

Yes I see this all the time ("removes a portion ") But never many facts ,is it 1% or 60% .
I seldom see and moisture in the traps coming from an HRV unit.
Advertising is great at using it might or it can or it does .
I would like Facts from these companies stop the Bull SXXX .
I am of the opinion that HRVs should not be run at certain times of the year as they can add moisture to the home and other times cause the home to be lacking in moisture . ("Thoughts? ")

...Cookie

[Doug Wall]

These are small aptarments and do have the space or need for this .
This is Florida and I do not think Radon Needs as much air exchange as is done by an HRV.

Points:

• thousands of condos between 3,000 to 10,000 sq ft in Naples alone.(ten high rises on gulfshore blvd alone with more than a 100 units)
• Most high rises are mitigated with ERV if possible, sometimes 2 or 3 ERV's.
• Smaller condos 1300 to 2000 sq ft (2story or low rise) are generally mitigated with a mechanical ventilation system (just brings air in, a few hours a day).
• We find elevated radon on all floors even up to the 25th or 27th, I don't really pay much attention, we perform hundreds of radon tests.
• Bill Levy, Associated Radon /east coast, Gene Yacobacci, at RMS, Radon Mitigation Services / statewide (www.radonfix.com), and Shawn Price at Air Chek, inc. (www.radon.com ) are experts. After going to over 15,000 homes, I don't really pay much attention to anyone but these guys, they've proved they know what they're talking about. Lots of opinions out there about radon, too many people underestimate the business. Not trying to slam anyone but you want facts about radon, mitigation etc. not someones guess.

I have to get back to work, it's almost 5:30 and I did want to go home before dark, we might get a frost tonight, need to cover my tomato plant (1).

Have a good week
Doug Wall
Radon & Mold Professionals
www.naplesmoldinspection.com

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by rcooke

Yes I see this all the time ("removes a portion ") But never many facts ,is it 1% or 60% .

There are facts at the HVI website. For the cooling season, the Stirling/Ultimate Air ERV heat wheel unit running at 64 cfm has a total recovery efficiency of 54% while the Standex ERV150SC at 66 cfm has an efficiency of only 20%. You can get a relative idea of the moisture movement from the heating season data. The Standex transfers next to no moisture at 32F and only 8% at -13F. Depending on cfm, the Ultimate Air transfers from 55 to 69% moisture at 32F. Thus you can see that the dessicant heat wheel shows superior performance.

By calling the manufacturer or getting an HVAC tech/eng. to look at the specs, they could actually calculate the amounts of water transferred between air streams.

I seldom see and moisture in the traps coming from an HRV unit.

Most HRV’s are run on too high exhange rates.......much higher than necessary for good air quality in average/normal conditions. For example: -20C air at 90% Rh when brought into the home and heated to +20C now has an RH of slightly over 5%!!!!......a bit like desert air. I have seen people add humidifiers to forced air systems because of excessive dryness caused by the HRV.

From 1983-92, I was an inspector/researcher/troubleshooter for the NB R2000 program. I have seen excessive shrinkage in new hardwood floors, shocks from door knobs and nosebleeds in early R2000 homesthat were way over ventilated and too dry*.........no, not too wet as most of the general public has come to believe about the certified R2000 home. This phenomenon happened due to to contractors who were building homes "like R2000" but were too cheap or stupid not to put a $2000 air exchange system in the house. So when huge moisture/mould/rot problems developed who did they blame.......no, not themselves but R2000! Don’t take the training and get the R2000 inspections, don’t blame the program!!!
*NOTE: The ventilation rates for R2000 homes have been reduced 4-5 times since the beginning of the program with no adverse health effects.

Most people aren’t instructed by the builder or HVAC sub about how to run the system, what to expect of it / not expect of it or its service requirements.

Click on Ventilation for New Homes on the web page below.. I wrote the original in 1994 and it has been since changed/rewritten a bit by an current employee with no experience in IAQ or installing HRV’s ......so there are a few things I don’t agree with now but it’s still a good intro document.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....iteid=1&lang=1

I‘ve seen some real messes in the field and most local HI’s don’t help the situation much!! I have a report on my desk that says: "An air exchange system was noted". What????? Does it run? Defrost? Is it under recall? What controls? Do controls function? How is it ducted? Do dampers operate? Are damper motors operational? Does it need servicing? (most do here.) Maybe I’m that critical because I was installing them in 1981. Actually the first we put in may have been the forerunner to the Stirling unit- still looks very much like the original Air-X-Change heat wheel that Nutone and Honeywell branded/sold for awhile.

Advertising is great at using it might or it can or it does .
I would like Facts from these companies stop the Bull SXXX .
Go to the HVI site. Learn the terms. Call them armed with knowledge.

I am of the opinion that HRVs should not be run at certain times of the year as they can add moisture to the home and other times cause the home to be lacking in moisture . ("Thoughts? ")

...Cookie

HRV’s do not have to be run all the time in either season. Some manufacturer’s offer timed "off/wait state" or "re-circulation" periods interspersed with timed "air exchange" periods or air exchange "on demand". At least one manufacturer offers a programmable timer.

To run them all summer is senseless unless family members have severe pollen allergies or the house is closed up for air conditioning purposes. We put windows in houses for air exchange also!

In 1987 or so, saw an HRV cause a mould bloom in a basement during the summer!!! This was 7 houses down the street from the former owner/founder of the HRV manufacturer (now owned by Fantech; he’s rich and retired now). This was a small new retirement home for a couple. She liked to sit in the basement knitting/watching the soaps, etc and wanted lots of air down there. A period of very high exterior rh occurred (like Florida, Miss.) and mold showed up. The installer came and installed a much larger volume unit (275 cfm vs 135 cfm) to "dry the place up" and the mould got worse!!! I eventually got called because of my R2000 connections. Put a small Van Ee 1000 (100 cfm) in but specially wired it so that when the summer outdoor air got above 55-60%, the unit shut down and wouldn’t bring the humid air into the cool basement

[Joe Farsetta]

Standby for radon emanating fom Granite counter tops...

As to radon exprtise, call Anreas George. He consults and teaches for RTCA in Elmford, NY. Andy ws the physicist who worked or the Atomic Energy Commission, who ventured into the mines and did much of the investigative work with regard to radon gas. He is responsible for many of the meauremnt protocols and development of testng equipmet, valdation, and criteria. Andy developed manyof the algorythms in usetoday in the radon field.

[Nick Gromicko]

Except for the one that analyzes charcoal kits. Modesty prevents me from telling you who wrote that algorithm .

Anyway, the problem with commercial buildings isn't typically solved by increasing air exchange. You could double the air exchange rate and only cut the radon level in half by dilution. The problem stems from commercial buildings operating under negative presssure due to, mostly, stack effect.