Growth in crawl space

[ldapkus]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Also..just to be clear.....IF i have in my crawlspace what Todd has in his office space.....or what NICK has in his office space......and I was in the crawl space.....their would be growth in that crawspace....WITHOUT microbial growth being present.........

How did you get into that crawlspace Paul ???

[Paul W. Abernathy]

in my DREAMS...Linus...only in my DREAMS

[lcapaul]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Also..just to be clear.....IF i have in my crawlspace what Todd has in his office space.....or what NICK has in his office space......and I was in the crawl space.....their would be growth in that crawspace....WITHOUT microbial growth being present.........

Paul you sound just like Donald Rumsfeld....

" Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
Donald Rumsfeld

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol...could be called worse I guess....lol

[Caoimhín P. Connell]

Hello Mr. Blair:

Allow me to wade in and respond to your question.

Mould growth does not occur without moisture. Instead of sampling for mould, why not ask yourself the following questions:

1) What is the structural integrity of the wood?
2) What is the moisture content of the structural timbers?
3) If the moisture is excessive, where is the moisture coming from?

Consider this:

If the wood contains excessive moisture, do you think the type of mould present will effect the moisture content, or do you think the moisture content will effect the type of mould present? I.e. – it the issue moisture or mould? Your conversation goes like this: “Hello Mr. Homeowner, listen, I just found out that your floor is soaking wet, and has been saturated with water for about a year now. But don’t worry, it’s OK, you don’t have to do anything about it, because I spent $45 of your money and I took a sample for mould, and lab said it was a non-toxic Chaetomium.” (That will surely come as a relief to the Homeowner.)

If the structural integrity of the wood is compromised, do you think that by knowing the genus and/or species of the mould(s) present will somehow alter the structural integrity? The conversation goes like this: Hello Mr. Homeowner, listen, your floor is ready to crumble out underneath your feet. But don’t worry, it’s OK, you don’t have to do anything about it, because I spent $45 of your money and took a sample for mould, and lab said there was no mould present.” … Ooops, guess what? … the lab did EXACTLY what you asked for, they analyzed for mould, and it turns out there is no mould present, instead the wood is being rotted out by a wood eating fungus that is not a mould. If the structural integrity of the wood is compromised, what difference does it make if the wood was degraded by a mould or a mushroom producing fungus? What did your $45 sample tell you that speaks to the problem? Are you clear on defining the problem -What is the problem? Is the problem structural integrity of the subfloor or is the problem the genus of mould or fungus that is present?

Regarding the air samples: The conversation goes like this: Hello Mr. Homeowner, listen, your floor is soaking wet and ready to crumble out underneath your feet. But don’t worry, it’s OK, because I just spent $200 of your money and took air samples for mould, and lab said there was only 452 spores per cubic meter of air inside your house and 972 spores per cubic meter of air outside, and since the inside counts were lower than the outside counts, you don’t have a mould problem." Phew... Now THAT's comforting!

Finally, the conversation goes like this:

Plaintiff’s Attorney: “Now, Mr. Blair: Having observed that the floor boards were soaking wet, and that the structural integrity of the floor boards was compromised, could you please explain to the courts again, exactly why you wasted my client’s money collecting samples for mould? Also, would you please provide to the court your data quality objectives that describe the precision and error associated with your sampling data.”

Mr. Blair: __________________________________

I’m anxious to see how you will answer this. Remember, the next guy to take the stand is an an expert witness who doesn't know squat about Home Inspections or floorboards, he's just an expert on sampling theory and mycology. He too will be interested in your response, since your professional intergrity as a whole may now hinge on the validity of your samples.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

[David A. Andersen]

I have a stupid question, do you know where the water came from?

What's it going to take to fix it? Are you going to have to rip out all this damage and infected wood in the repair? That's part of mold mediation.

Is mold the issue here or a water leak and structural defect resulting from it?

Mr. Connell,

Thank you for answering my "stupid question"!

[Michael Bazzo, CMI]

Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell

Ooops, guess what? … the lab did EXACTLY what you asked for, they analyzed for mould, and it turns out there is no mould present, instead the wood is being rotted out by a wood eating fungus that is not a mould.

What would you charge a client to test for a wood eating fungus? what would the lab fee's and your time be worth? how would someone know the wood had no mold growth without testing?

[ldapkus]

You hit the nail on the head Mike, hire a certified industrial hygeinist or hire a certified home inspector to get the same sampling. Compare the $$$$$$$ Give your clients the options. I did environmental work for 20 years and these guys really pat themselves on the back to keep their rates top $$$ Go figure.

[Caoimhín P. Connell]

Hello Mr. Bazzo:

You ask:
What would you charge a client to test for a wood eating fungus?

Answer:
Zero dollars and similar cents. I would explain to them why such sampling was a waste of time and money.

You ask:
What would the lab fee's and your time be worth?

Answer:
I bill at a simple time and materials basis. Field work is $95 per hour port-to-port plus cost plus 15%; legal prep and testimony is $195 per hour. Now admittedly, as a rebuttal witness, sometimes I must perform legitimate sampling for litigation purposes. For example, in the next few weeks, I am probably going to be performing legitimate air sampling for moulds for a case in litigation . The “mould test” I will be performing is a legitimate assessment of airborne moulds in a residence, and the cost STARTS at $3,800.00 It WILL be definitive and it WILL be tenable to the trier of fact. And it really will cost that much to do it right.

You ask:
How would someone know the wood had no mold growth without testing?

Answer:
Since the wood is wet and rotting, who would really care whether mould was present or not? And therefore, since the presence or absence of mould has no probative value, why sample? It is an answer to a question that need not be asked.

Easily, 95% of the time (actually more), when I receive a phone call into my office wherein the caller wants to hire me to perform “mould testing” in their home, I talk myself out of the work. By the end of the conversation, the caller is better educated, and comes to the rightful conclusion that they don’t need me, or a “certified mould expert” or a “mould test” or a mould inspection. They usually realize they have been unnecessarily frightened by a lot of mould fear-mongering and hype. And put their efforts and resources to better employment (such as kids and vacations).
I hope that helps.

Regarding David Andersen’s comments. I missed your post – my apologies. You were, in my opinion, absolutely on target and to the point. I agree with you completely, and you beat me to the punch.

Regarding Mr. Dapkus’ comments. I’m not sure to what he is referring. There is no competition between Industrial Hygienists and Home Inspectors. We don’t do the same thing; don’t provide even marginally similar services or functions, we don’t perform even slightly similar sampling, and our paths very rarely cross except when an Home Inspector makes the mistake of entering the realm of mycology and collects a mould sample and gets sued for incorrectly interpreting the mould samples; then an Industrial Hygienist is hired as a rebuttal witness to dismantle the Home Inspector’s report. (BTW, I have never, ever, in my entire career, ever heard of a case wherein a Home Inspector was ever called in as a rebuttal expert witness to challenge an Industrial Hygienist’s report on a mould exposure. If Mr. Dapkus knows of such a case – here is his chance to provide a reference.)

To date, without exception, every time I have been asked to challenge a Home Inspector’s “mould report” or mould sampling data, I have succeeded in discrediting the Home Inspector’s work as lacking any scientific validity. To date, without exception, no Home Inspector has ever challenged one of my reports on mould or mould exposures.

Although over the last 18 years, I have performed hundreds of inspections for mould in homes, I’m not smart enough to be an Home Inspector, and so I don’t do it (and I don’t know of a single Industrial Hygienist who does compete with Home Inspectors). As I have said here before, I have always hired an Home Inspector for my own property transactions. I have great respect for professional Home Inspectors who stick to Home Inspections, and provide me with that valuable service.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

[David A. Andersen]

Give your clients the options.

And information.

I did environmental work for 20 years and these guys really pat themselves on the back to keep their rates top $$$ Go figure.

Would that work for our industry?

[Michael Bazzo, CMI]

Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell

For example, in the next few weeks, I am probably going to be performing legitimate air sampling for moulds for a case in litigation . The “mould test” I will be performing is a legitimate assessment of airborne moulds in a residence, and the cost STARTS at $3,800.00 It WILL be definitive and it WILL be tenable to the trier of fact. And it really will cost that much to do it right.

What is the procedure for legitimate air sampling for mold?

Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell

Since the wood is wet and rotting, who would really care whether mould was present or not? And therefore, since the presence or absence of mould has no probative value, why sample? It is an answer to a question that need not be asked.

If I had wood in my home that was wet and had a probability of spreading mold spores in my home when being removed. I would want that question answered. Sometimes one we are engaged in a profession for a number of years, we tend to get "Cocky". submitting to this attitude at the expense of the occupants best interest not only jeopardizes them but increases our liability. it seems this conversation has come full circle as the start of this thread dealt with the liability of mold testing.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

1.) I will only TEST for mold when it is obvious...and my testing is to determine the TYPE of mold it is...IF it is excessive.

I would venture to say the client would want the piece of mind because lets say it is "Stackee" my short name for Black Mold.....and it is excessive...I would want my client to know about it.....

If you KNOW it's mold, why test it to identify the variety? Is there any good mold?

How do you define "excessive" when mold is completely unregulated?

Rather than charge someone for what I consider to be an unnecessary service, I just say something like this:

"Ambient moisture content greater than ___% was measured in the wood structures. No decay as a result of high humidity was observed, but light fungi growth did exist. Wood will decay at moisture levels > 28% and will support fungi growth at levels in the low-20s. It is recommended that a qualified individual: 1) remediate (kill) the fungi growing in the crawl space, 2) take appropriate measures to eliminate the environment conducive to future fungi growth. The services of a mold remediation specialist and/or a crawl space specialist should be considered to achieve the desired results. Options to reduce the moisture levels include, but are not limited to, elimination of water intrusion into the crawl space, increasing ventilation, installation of a vapor barrier, increasing the amount of vapor barrier, or installation of a humidistat controlled fan. Here's useful information from the EPA about fungi: http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html."

[Dale Duffy]

Joe, your bucking for a red box from some of the fanatic's here....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

If you KNOW it's mold, why test it to identify the variety? Is there any good mold?

How do you define "excessive" when mold is completely unregulated?

Rather than charge someone for what I consider to be an unnecessary service, I just say something like this:

"Ambient moisture content greater than ___% was measured in the wood structures. No decay as a result of high humidity was observed, but light fungi growth did exist. Wood will decay at moisture levels > 28% and will support fungi growth at levels in the low-20s. It is recommended that a qualified individual: 1) remediate (kill) the fungi growing in the crawl space, 2) take appropriate measures to eliminate the environment conducive to future fungi growth. The services of a mold remediation specialist and/or a crawl space specialist should be considered to achieve the desired results. Options to reduce the moisture levels include, but are not limited to, elimination of water intrusion into the crawl space, increasing ventilation, installation of a vapor barrier, increasing the amount of vapor barrier, or installation of a humidistat controlled fan. Here's useful information from the EPA about fungi: <A href="http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html."[/quote">http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html."

Because you did not read all my posts regarding it.....I clearly tell them about the moisture and effects of the rotten area and how they should fix it....remember I am also a licensed contractor as well..( ie: builder ) so I am aware of how they can fix it.....if I see lot of microbial growth....I explain it is hard to tell what exactly it is....I dont test...I would sample and let the lab do the testing...

But what you are missing is.....it is the choice of the client....I have never pressed a client for any mold sampling.....that is their option if they want to know....they freely choose to pay me if they would like to know....on the other hand I have made it very clear it needs to be replaced or re-removed or what ever applies.

You are right....no actual requirements for mold testing......I trained with PMII and I do what they say.......and follow the guidelines and SOP they and the NAMI follow.

Look......I wont stop offering a service just because someone does not agree with why it is done.....I run my own business and make my own choices on how it is run......if the client wants something sampled and they have the money...and freely choose it.......I will sample it.....

[ldapkus]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Because you did not read all my posts regarding it.....I clearly tell them about the moisture and effects of the rotten area and how they should fix it....remember I am also a licensed contractor as well..( ie: builder ) so I am aware of how they can fix it.....if I see lot of microbial growth....I explain it is hard to tell what exactly it is....I dont test...I would sample and let the lab do the testing...

But what you are missing is.....it is the choice of the client....I have never pressed a client for any mold sampling.....that is their option if they want to know....they freely choose to pay me if they would like to know....on the other hand I have made it very clear it needs to be replaced or re-removed or what ever applies.

You are right....no actual requirements for mold testing......I trained with PMII and I do what they say.......and follow the guidelines and SOP they and the NAMI follow.

Look......I wont stop offering a service just because someone does not agree with why it is done.....I run my own business and make my own choices on how it is run......if the client wants something sampled and they have the money...and freely choose it.......I will sample it.....

Well said Paul. And if you had the capacity to do bulk sampling of suspected asbestos containing material, would you offer this service to your clients? Absolutly. Makes good business sense.