"Mold" on trusses...how would you address?

[Douglas Wall]

Most molds in attics are nothing to worry about. Most of the molds in attics are nontoxic, but a lot of considered toxic molds hang around nontoxic molds.

Monday morning, great to get back at it.
Toxic molds, don't think I've ever told anyone they had "toxic mold". I would suggest inspectors leave that term alone. You could argue mold are not toxic but produce mycrotoxins. We average about a thousand inspections each year ( Job #1024 this morning) and rarely talk about "toxic" molds.
Mold in the attic, in the south the HVAC ducts are in the attic. Any souuthern mold inspector should have a lot to say about that when they have mold in the attic. More reading would be a good idea.
Have a great week, gotta run 1st job hour away at 8 am.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Please read more carefully: I did not say "toxic mold", I said "considered toxic mold".

Mycotoxins definition: Secondary metabolites produced by microfungi that are capable of causing disease and death in humans and other animals. Hence the word toxic is in the name. So whoever is agruing that needs to do more reading.

Also mold spores can cause reactions or even growths inside lungs and nasal cavities, when the spores are inhaled. I have seen both instances with my clients, first hand. For example read this from the Mayo Clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aspergillosis/DS00950. Now is that is a considered toxic mold.

I do agree that most people are poorly informed about mold. Sad but true.

[Douglas Wall]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aspergillosis/DS00950. Now is that is a considered toxic mold.

Good article, same thing has been said many times before in other articles, didn’t see the term toxic mold in it though.
“non toxic” or toxic, I just don’t see the need to call it that way. Right conditions / client and the “non toxic” can cause serious problems too. Many Aspergillus species produce mycotoxins consistently but some do not, but could. If you want to label molds non toxic or “considered toxic” go for it, I just don’t see the need.
My post was not to criticize but bring attention to the term "toxic mold" or "non toxic mold" and that there other reasons attic mold can be a real problem for homes in the South.

[Michael Larson]

IMHO the very word "Toxic" is way overused whatever the context.

It is too easy to use the word to scare the crap out of clients and into mold testing as a stand alone service which is inadequate to deal with the real problem.

We all consume toxins everyday unawares but with out considering personal sensitivity and dose just the fact that we are exposed is meaningless.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Think about it this way. What is the definition of toxic?
After you have that answer, then ask what does mold do to the human body?
Then you will have your answer.

[Michael Larson]

James, I have a great deal of respect for how you handle mold but using toxic with out considering dose is irrelevant.

The Dose Makes the Poison

A substance can produce the harmful effect associated with its toxic properties only if it reaches a susceptible biological system within your body in a sufficient concentration (a high enough dose). The toxic effect of a substance increases as the exposure (or dose) to the susceptible biological system increases. For all chemicals there is a dose response curve, or a range of doses that result in a graded effect between the extremes of no effect and 100% response (toxic effect). All chemical substances will exhibit a toxic effect given a large enough dose. If the dose is low enough even a highly toxic substance will cease to cause a harmful effect. The toxic potency of a chemical is thus ultimately defined by the dose (the amount) of the chemical that will produce a specific response in a specific biological system. "All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison….

" Paracelsus (1493-1541)

[James E. Braun, CMI]

I am using the words "considered toxic" instead of just "toxic" when it comes to mold, "considered" as in considered by the mold industry. Two different meanings.

As far as dosage is involved, that is how the mold industry determines if mold is considered toxic are not. A high count of Aspergillus has contributed to deaths in adults, while just one spore of Stachybrotys caused deaths in infants in one study conducted in Pennsylvania. In these cases the ortospy showed that mold had a toxic effect on their bodies which killed them. Not calling mold toxic in these cases would be a disservice.
I take it, Micheal, that you call mold, a biological growth. Why not just call it for what it is?

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by rhensel

Damn...don't call it mold. What would you call it? Staining? Unknown Substance? Greenish growth of unknown origin? why are people so damn scared? Call it what it is! If you don't know its mold then get out of the inspection business. I call concrete - concrete, I call a chimney a chimney, I call a fireplace a fireplace. Do you call leaks under the sink a fluid like manner that is consistent with hydrogen and 2 part oxygen under the sink and to call a plumber for further evaluation? Why would mold be any different? Or can you tell me that its H2O without lab testing?

I get so frustrated. Many people call me to look over the home inspection they received. Many times I see, 1972 house has staining on the interior sheathing of the roof call a licensed roofer to evaluate the entire roof all it components to determine the exact condition of the roof. Then I see, there is a minor leak at the kitchen sink. Call a licensed plumber to evaluate the entire plumbing system of the house for further evaluation. Just frustrates the hell out of me that people look for any simple reason to disqualify the entire subsystem and to pass the buck. Just venting I guess, so many people make our profession look incompetent. Say what it is and stand behind your word.

Right on!! Right on!! Right on!!

I rarely refer anything out........only larger repair jobs that I know would be out of my league to guesstimate.

Did an inspection yesterday in which the client (a TRANE certified HVAC tech) did not call any of the 3 inspectors suggested by his agent. His wife found me on the web and hired me after about a 10 minute conversation. Found a couple of major items that may break the sale as well as many small items. Gave a price bracket on the re-wiring and said he should check with an electrician (of which he knows a few due to his job) before he moves ahead.......I was within the electrician's price bracket.

This was a 35 year old, 1800 sq ft home with partially finished basement......took 4 full hours. This agent, new to myself, had 10 years in RE. At the end of the inspection, he said he had never seen such a comprehensive inspection. The buyer, also the fire captain of the local volunteer fire brigade, said he will surely recommend me whenever he has a chance.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by jbraun

Most molds in attics are nothing to worry about. Most of the molds in attics are nontoxic, but a lot of considered toxic molds hang around nontoxic molds. I guess it is like a beautiful woman who has all ugly girlfriends.
Like Russel says it can still spread into the living areas, and there is no way of controlling which mold will take over. Molds are basically just fighting over feeding grounds. They are just trying to survive like you or me. All mold needs to be removed rather it is considered toxic or not. Let me put it simpler, no mold in attic good; visible mold in attic is bad.

If we find evidence of mould in a dry attic, how do we know the mould remnants will ever continue to grow again?

During my inspection yesterday, I found a very "mouldy" attic sheathing (north face only). This mould and moisture staining has developed over 35 years. House has been occupied by a family with 4 young kids for 6 years.......with no illness problems (they were in the house for 2 of the 4 hour inspection and I saw 4 very healthy, well mannered children).

There is no pungent mould odour; there were no signs of mould elsewhere. How is that attic mould going to affect anyone?
1) there is 8 inches of fiberglass insulation to act as a filter from anything fallng downward (with 6 inches cellulose to be added if and when my clients buy)
2) being in a cold climate, a 2 storey house has lots of stack effect with air moving upward, so again nothing is likely to come downward
So if there is no continued growth, is there a problem?

A few years back, an environmental remediation company sent an alarmist letter to HI's in an attempt to sell the AEGIS mould treatment through referrals from Hi's when they found mould in attics. Cost of the treatment: $4-6 per sq ft of roof sheathing.

Within a couple of weeks, I get a call from an agent who nevers refers me (but I am the "go to" guy for a lot of folks here). I told her it was a good product but not necessarily needed. Before she got back to her "seller" clients, they had contracted with the firm to do the attic.

I phoned the company, got the second in command and questioned him with the 2 above questions. His reply was "Yes, you are probably correct, no mould will enter the house but we have a product to sell and we can sell it because people are afraid!"

Who made them afraid?
The press.....those with a product to sell......the home inspector covering his azz. "The sky is falling" with a new danger just about every other day!!!

BTW, my client yesterday asked me if I did mould testing. I told her only when necessary...which is about "nil". She said another inspector she interviewed said he did mould testing on just about every house he inspected and it should be done! Well.....I got the job....and found mould.

[Gregory A. Liebig]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

67 views over 2 days, and 8 people cast a vote. Wow.

You didn't have the answer that I would give in the poll.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

If we find evidence of mould in a dry attic, how do we know the mould remnants will ever continue to grow again?

During my inspection yesterday, I found a very "mouldy" attic sheathing (north face only). This mould and moisture staining has developed over 35 years. House has been occupied by a family with 4 young kids for 6 years.......with no illness problems (they were in the house for 2 of the 4 hour inspection and I saw 4 very healthy, well mannered children).

There is no pungent mould odour; there were no signs of mould elsewhere. How is that attic mould going to affect anyone?
1) there is 8 inches of fiberglass insulation to act as a filter from anything fallng downward (with 6 inches cellulose to be added if and when my clients buy)
2) being in a cold climate, a 2 storey house has lots of stack effect with air moving upward, so again nothing is likely to come downward
So if there is no continued growth, is there a problem?

A few years back, an environmental remediation company sent an alarmist letter to HI's in an attempt to sell the AEGIS mould treatment through referrals from Hi's when they found mould in attics. Cost of the treatment: $4-6 per sq ft of roof sheathing.

Within a couple of weeks, I get a call from an agent who nevers refers me (but I am the "go to" guy for a lot of folks here). I told her it was a good product but not necessarily needed. Before she got back to her "seller" clients, they had contracted with the firm to do the attic.

I phoned the company, got the second in command and questioned him with the 2 above questions. His reply was "Yes, you are probably correct, no mould will enter the house but we have a product to sell and we can sell it because people are afraid!"

Who made them afraid?
The press.....those with a product to sell......the home inspector covering his azz. "The sky is falling" with a new danger just about every other day!!!

BTW, my client yesterday asked me if I did mould testing. I told her only when necessary...which is about "nil". She said another inspector she interviewed said he did mould testing on just about every house he inspected and it should be done! Well.....I got the job....and found mould.

Mold no matter if it is considered toxic are not needs to be removed.
Proper removal of mold in attics varies from situation to situation. The main thing is that an air test in living area below attic mold needs to be taken to determine if the mold spores have drifted down. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not, no matter what the venting is.
Also the insulation is required to be removed and disposed of properly when an attic is remediated according to standards. Containment with negative air pressure is necessary.

[Russell J. Hensel]

TOXIC when it comes to mold is as individual as the person. What if I am HIGHLY allergic to Penicillium? Then its TOXIC to me. Saying that word can do a ton of harm. Is Stachybotrys Toxic (Black mold)? Well to 2/3 of the population, no at moderate levels. But it is the MOST TOXIC to people and causes the most damage to the highest amount of people.

ALL mold is toxic at some point. So what is and is NOT toxic depends on the sensitivity of the person.

ALL visual mold over 10 square feet needs to be remediated no matter what the Air Quality tests say, according to the EPA.

If the mold cannot be removed it needs to be encapsulated properly and procedures to prevent contamination need to be in place.

[James H. Bushart]

Where was the air handler system located? Were there ducts in the attic? Were their penetrations in the ceiling below that did not vent to the outdoors (like a bathroom fan) that could draw in air from the attic when the room was at a negative pressure? Was there a "whole house fan" that would scatter the spores when used and possibly draw them from other penetrations when the house is at negative pressure? A "yes" to any of these would make attic mold significant enough to report no matter what the used house salesman thinks about it.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by jbraun

Mold no matter if it is considered toxic are not needs to be removed.
Proper removal of mold in attics varies from situation to situation.
The main thing is that an air test in living area below attic mold needs to be taken to determine if the mold spores have drifted down.
Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not, no matter what the venting is.
Also the insulation is required to be removed and disposed of properly when an attic is remediated according to standards. Containment with negative air pressure is necessary.

You can try and remove the mould but there is always mould in every home.
Give it food and moisture and it will grow again.
Mould is the natural way of breaking down the refuse of the world .
No mould and we could not walk in the bush.
Is there time when mould should be checked for and removed definatly ,but very seldome .,too me it it is over sold by a few who do not have the knowledge they think they do .

It is like a perfect Vacuum imposible to achieve .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Again, we are only concerned about considered toxic levels of mold.