Pool question

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

Believe it or not, most pools will have some sort of small leak in them.

You are quite correct (Russel Ray would disagree however ). Most leaks are relatively insignificant and would not necessarily warrant any type of "leak detection."

There are usually some pretty good indicators, when there is a leak substantial enough to create problems.

[wsiegel]

Jeff,

While I agree with you in theory, I still will defer to a pool specialist at any indication of a leak. I do not want that monkey on my back should the leak turn out to me more than I thought it would be. To me, if it is a leak, it needs to be fixed.

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

Jeff,

While I agree with you in theory, I still will defer to a pool specialist at any indication of a leak. I do not want that monkey on my back should the leak turn out to me more than I thought it would be. To me, if it is a leak, it needs to be fixed.

William,

Do you have a list of these leak indicators?

[wsiegel]

Bubbles in the pump basket (many times the seal is just bad or not tightened)
Leaks at the PVC connections near the pump or filter
Improperly installed pool light.
Low water level (could just be evaporation)
Excessive bubbles at the jets
Cracks below the coping
Hallow coping (except over the skimmer)
Settelment / cracking of the decking
Cracks in the pool liner
Deteriorting pool liner
Items glued / stuck to the skimmer (many times there is a small leak in this area)

Not all of these items mean the pool is leaking or has a major problem. I list the problems I see, state that they need to be repaired, and after the repair - by a licensed pool company, that the pool be checked for other possible leaks.
I am not telling (or alarming) my clients that they have a major problem (unless they do), but informing them that these areas need to be repaired, and that because we cannot detect main drain or hidden leaks, that it is advisable (after these areas are repaired) that the pool should be leak tested. All of the item listed above are leaks or potential leaks. I have has instances were after a small leak has been repaired a larger leak has been found.

The pool is kind of like the main waste system. It is underground and cannot be seen. I advise all clients of older homes that have a cast iron drain line that we cannot see the line, and they should bet the line scoped out with a video camera to detect possible damage.

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

Bubbles in the pump basket (many times the seal is just bad or not tightened)
Leaks at the PVC connections near the pump or filter
Improperly installed pool light.
Low water level (could just be evaporation)
Excessive bubbles at the jets
Cracks below the coping
Hallow coping (except over the skimmer)
Settelment / cracking of the decking
Cracks in the pool liner
Deteriorting pool liner
Items glued / stuck to the skimmer (many times there is a small leak in this area)

Not all of these items mean the pool is leaking or has a major problem. I list the problems I see, state that they need to be repaired, and after the repair - by a licensed pool company, that the pool be checked for other possible leaks.
I am not telling (or alarming) my clients that they have a major problem (unless they do), but informing them that these areas need to be repaired, and that because we cannot detect main drain or hidden leaks, that it is advisable (after these areas are repaired) that the pool should be leak tested. All of the item listed above are leaks or potential leaks. I have has instances were after a small leak has been repaired a larger leak has been found.

The pool is kind of like the main waste system. It is underground and cannot be seen. I advise all clients of older homes that have a cast iron drain line that we cannot see the line, and they should bet the line scoped out with a video camera to detect possible damage.

Or a pressure test!

[wsiegel]

agreed

[Justin Watts]

Hey Guys,

JUST FYI -

Be very careful and cautious.... If you have NACHI's AIG Error and Omissions Insurance... their coverage excludes pools. So I automatically recommend furhter evaluation by a pool / spa specialist to cover myself...

I do check the obvious issues.. i.e. GFCI protection for pool / spa lights, subpanel condition, pool equipment for visible leaks, electrical issues, safety fencing, alarms and other safety requirements....

www.americandreamhomeinspection.net

[dbook]

Bill,
You are just the guy to ask this question to –

Where should the GFCI be located for a pool. Like in Fl. here in Phx, AZ we have 1000000’s of pools. But no 2 seem to be alike. Today I saw an older pool (25 years) and it had no GFCI anywhere I could see. All the pool electrical was in a sub panel. The light and pump motor breakers where there with a couple of other breakers. While everything worked as expected, there was not a GFCI anywhere. The grounding wire was connected to the pump and to the concrete base. The metal pole with the hot lead inside had a weather proof cover, leading to the motor and a switch for the pump. The timer was at the electrical service panel on the wall of the house. A metal conduit ran under ground to the filter/pump area.

In pools with a GFCI, they haven’t been connected to the pool pump, just a receptacle at the pool filter/pump motor. Shouldn’t the GFCI protect the pool pump also?

Question #2 - I was asked the other day by a buyer if the garbage disposal was protected by a GFCI breaker. I was dumb-founded, thought about my answer and replied no; but didn’t exactly know why not. The receptacles in the kitchen were protected by the necessary GFCIs. She stated that when she is finished washing dishes, or cleaning veggies, etc, she always runs the garbage disposal and could the water on her hand get into the receptacle when she turns it on and shock her. I told her I didn’t think so but would find out.

SO I’m finding out.

Any one want to chime in????

Thanks for the help
Doug

[wsiegel]

The pools themselves are not GFCI protected. They are supposed to be bonded and grounded. That is why it is so important that you verify the bonding wire at the motor. Below shows where outlets are supposed to protected. 1C became effective in 1996

1a. All receptacles outlets within 15 feet of the water, in any direction (also see EXTERIOR).
1b. All receptacles outlets within 20 feet of the water, in any direction (also see EXTERIOR).
1c. All receptacles outlets within 20 feet of the water, in any direction (also see EXTERIOR), receptacles for pump within 10 feet (but at least 5 feet) of inside of pool walls.

The gabage disposal does not need to be GFCI protected.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by dbook

Bill,
You are just the guy to ask this question to –

Where should the GFCI be located for a pool. Like in Fl. here in Phx, AZ we have 1000000’s of pools. But no 2 seem to be alike. Today I saw an older pool (25 years) and it had no GFCI anywhere I could see. All the pool electrical was in a sub panel. The light and pump motor breakers where there with a couple of other breakers. While everything worked as expected, there was not a GFCI anywhere. The grounding wire was connected to the pump and to the concrete base. The metal pole with the hot lead inside had a weather proof cover, leading to the motor and a switch for the pump. The timer was at the electrical service panel on the wall of the house. A metal conduit ran under ground to the filter/pump area.

In pools with a GFCI, they haven’t been connected to the pool pump, just a receptacle at the pool filter/pump motor. Shouldn’t the GFCI protect the pool pump also?

Question #2 - I was asked the other day by a buyer if the garbage disposal was protected by a GFCI breaker. I was dumb-founded, thought about my answer and replied no; but didn’t exactly know why not. The receptacles in the kitchen were protected by the necessary GFCIs. She stated that when she is finished washing dishes, or cleaning veggies, etc, she always runs the garbage disposal and could the water on her hand get into the receptacle when she turns it on and shock her. I told her I didn’t think so but would find out.

SO I’m finding out.

Any one want to chime in????

Thanks for the help
Doug

I think Mr. Siegel covered it quite well on the code issues. I will comment on a few things in the post just for clarity.

RED- Yes, if the pump is controlled by a plug and receptacle the receptacle must be GFCI protected.

Blue - The pool light SHOULD be on GFCI Breaker......it needs to be protected.

Green- remember the connection coming from the GRID which is probably under the concrete to the pump is the BONDING requirement...not grounding actually.

Here is a nice article for you to keep handy -http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf

[dbook]

Thanks, Bill and Paul and Brian when he reads it....

You helped to clear up some confusing I had around pool inspections. I've downloaded the suggested article for future use. I'll look into the electrical CE course also.
Doug

[wsiegel]

Nice clarification Paul. Your all right for an electrician

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol....thanks fella.......

[Brian E. Kelly]

Hi Doug. The pool pump motor is bonded and connected to plastic piping so there is no electrical path to the pool.

As for GFCI at pool lights, I look for the GFCI protection in and around the pool until I find it or until I give up. If I can not find it I write it up and either the owner will tell us where it is, or one will get installed.

See you Sunday, bring me a Cigar