Why 2 Outdoor Samples?

[Scott Gilligan, CMI]

Can you please explain why you wrote that two outdoor samples are required when every other training course, standard, or sampling guide only requires one sample. I can see your argument that it is to be more thorough, but there are a lot of other things that are not in the standard that should be in there that are not that would make an inspection and report more thorough.

I don't see anything in the standard about recording the relative humidity and temperature of each sampling location. There is nothing in there about diagraming a room and visible mold growth. There is nothing in there about taking moisture readings of pourous substrate surfaces where mold growth is visible.

Clients don't want to pay for 2 samples of the outside. They would rather know what is going on inside their home. I have always been taught that you take one outside sample, one inside the home in an area suspected to be uneffectd, and one in the area of concern. You use the uneffected area as an indoor control to compare your values to and than compare to the outside levels.

I think you would have been better off to recommend an additional sample be taken upon the clients approval instead of requiring it. One sample is required, but sometimes there are cases where a second sample on the exterior would not be possible.

Here is a perfectly good example:

You get called out to do a mold inspection on a condo unit that is on the 10th floor of a high rise building. The floor has other units above you and there are balconies for each unit. The unit is in the middle of the building and there are units to the left and right.

You can't take a sample on the balcony because it is under an overhanging portion of the structure. You would have to take a smaple down at ground level in order to do you outdoor control. You move away from the building and take a sample at the required distance from the building.

Where am I supposed to take a second sample in this case and it be of actual value to the information I am trying to obtain? If I move to a different side of the building, the conditions are going to change and can drastically effect an average that have no bearing on the unit that is being inspected.

To be honest, I really don't feel comfortable using the IAC2 standard because it recommends 2 outdoor samples be taken. It controdicts everythign every other training course says what is required, it controdicts what most labs will tell you in their sampling guides, and it is not in the standards that my insurance company requires that I adhere to in order to be covered by them.

The standard is a good first attempt and it includes a lot of detailed information, but I think that it needs to be revised a little now that it is out there and had time for people who are actually doing this kind of work day in and day out have had a chance to review it.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

I believe Air-O-Cell and Bio-Tape made by Zefon and EmLab's Micro 5 are also mentioned in the SOP. In fact, I believe I go over how to use ALL of the most common mold sampling devices in the IAC2 online video mold course.

I am not buddies with the owner of Pro-Lab. Although I've eaten in his restaurant and he serves a mean strip steak and mashed potatoes dinner.

Why don't you simply ask the author of the IAC2 SOP an intelligent question instead of creating a soap opera?

Attachment 32420

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[Douglas Wall]

Are you guys getting your air cassettes for free or do you have to pay for they through EMSL? I have been paying for my cassettes, but only a few bucks each. With the amount of cassettes I send in to my lab, I think they should be giving them to me.

We only use (buy) about 3,000 a year, if EMSL is providing them free, we like to know about it.
Jason and EMSL have been great to work with for years now.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

It all might depend on what you are paying per sample. Some companies roll the free supplies into their price.

[Larry F. Rollins]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

I believe Air-O-Cell and Bio-Tape made by Zefon and EmLab's Micro 5 are also mentioned in the SOP. In fact, I believe I go over how to use ALL of the most common mold sampling devices in the IAC2 online video mold course.

I am not buddies with the owner of Pro-Lab. Although I've eaten in his restaurant and he serves a mean strip steak and mashed potatoes dinner.

Why don't you simply ask the author of the IAC2 SOP an intelligent question instead of creating a soap opera?

Attachment 32420

Good evening Ben,
I am sometimes taken back at how juvenile some "professionals" can get.
That having been said.... I believe that I did ask an intelligent question and when you jumped into the thread you completely skirted it.
After all, the thread started with.... Why is it that IAC2 requires two samples outside and only one is required inside?" I would appreciate your reviewing the original post and giving me an answer. I certainly haven't recieved one from the "folks".
Thanks!

[Joe Farsetta]

I also work with (Federal) certified industrial hygenists, one of whom wrote the standards for NY City's standards. He states that only a single outdoor sample is needed.

Upwind and downwind has no bearing, as you are not measuring a contaminent level emanating from something.

[Larry F. Rollins]

Originally Posted by lrollins

Good evening Ben,
I am sometimes taken back at how juvenile some "professionals" can get.
That having been said.... I believe that I did ask an intelligent question and when you jumped into the thread you completely skirted it.
After all, the thread started with.... Why is it that IAC2 requires two samples outside and only one is required inside?" I would appreciate your reviewing the original post and giving me an answer. I certainly haven't recieved one from the "folks".
Thanks!

Nothing! Nada! Nehil! Zero! Zip! Oh well... it's just an SOP!

[Douglas Wall]

After all, the thread started with.... Why is it that IAC2 requires two samples outside and only one is required inside?"

If you have to ask maybe you shouldn't be doing mold. No offense but just follow the sop you choose. If you can't design your own testing protocol, work for someone else but don't sell yourself as a mold inspector.
That's why our company has trainees.

"Sampling for mold should be conducted by professionals who have specific experience in designing mold sampling protocols, sampling methods, and interpreting the results." EPA

Probably why the new Arkansas law did not reconize so many pepole who believe they are "certified mold inspectors" when they just have a certificate of completion of training.

Arkansas Law Names IAQ Council
The state of Arkansas has required that applicants for licenses under its new mold law be certified by the American IAQ Council (now known as ACAC).

Arkansas Act 1467, which passed in May 2009 and goes into effect January 1, 2010, states that licensees must be possess one of the following:

• Certification as a CMC or CIEC by the American IAQ Council (now ACAC)
• Certification as a CIH by the American Board of Industrial Hygiene
• 20 hours of college level training in microbiology

The Arkansas law follows the example of Maryland, where a 2008 licensing law requires mold professionals to maintain certification by the American IAQ Council or similar independent certifying body.

"Accredited, independent certification is a reliable way for state governments to verify the qualifications of license applicants," said Charlie Wiles, ACAC executive director. "We anticipate that more states will follow the pattern of Arkansas and Maryland."

Click here to read Arkansas Act 1467.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Originally Posted by douglas

If you have to ask maybe you shouldn't be doing mold.

Okay than give us the answer. Why two samples when most of the industry is just one?

[Larry F. Rollins]

Why is it that a simple question stirs up so much defensiveness. I assume the reason to be that none of you have a intelligent answer and instead of admitting it, decide to hide behind a defensive posture so that you can save face.
My original question was honest and straightforward. It had no hidden agenda or politics behind it. I was studying the sop's and questioned the scientific reasoning behind that particular sop. I believe it is always in the best interest of science to continually question our procedures.
If there is solid reasoning behind this sop..... I think we all deserve to know what it is.
Sure wish someone with some "umph" would chime in here.
Just put forward honest thinking on the subject and forget the @#$%ing around.

[Larry F. Rollins]

[quote=douglas;569282]If you have to ask maybe you shouldn't be doing mold. No offense but just follow the sop you choose. If you can't design your own testing protocol, work for someone else but don't sell yourself as a mold inspector.
That's why our company has trainees.

I'm sorry... maybe you can blindly accept everything that is put in front of you.... but I am not a sheep and never have been. Your love it or leave it attitude can't possibly train anyone.... simply gather a group of non questioning yes men!



Probably why the new Arkansas law did not reconize so many pepole who believe they are "certified mold inspectors" when they just have a certificate of completion of training.

Arkansas Law Names IAQ Council
The state of Arkansas has required that applicants for licenses under its new mold law be certified by the American IAQ Council (now known as ACAC).

Arkansas Act 1467, which passed in May 2009 and goes into effect January 1, 2010, states that licensees must be possess one of the following:

• Certification as a CMC or CIEC by the American IAQ Council (now ACAC)
• Certification as a CIH by the American Board of Industrial Hygiene
• 20 hours of college level training in microbiology

The Arkansas law follows the example of Maryland, where a 2008 licensing law requires mold professionals to maintain certification by the American IAQ Council or similar independent certifying body.

"Accredited, independent certification is a reliable way for state governments to verify the qualifications of license applicants," said Charlie Wiles, ACAC executive director. "We anticipate that more states will follow the pattern of Arkansas and Maryland."

Click here to read Arkansas Act 1467.

I'm sure your correct??????.... Arkansas went to all that trouble of putting together their Act 1467 just to bust my chops.....???? Yah your right!

[Douglas Wall]

Okay than give us the answer. Why two samples when most of the industry is just one?

You decide how many samples needed outdoors.

• Is the structure a long building with many entry doors?
• Did your inspection take several hours to complete? we have homes in this area with 11 or 12 HVAC systems, big. Commercial building can require several outdoor samples (in OUR opinion).

Many of our national clients request samples before the inspection and at the end of the inspection.
My point is that you are the “inspector” and you should decide how many samples are taken.
Mold inspections are not home inspections, many have the mind set that are they can hide behind a mold sop not approved by anyone for some sort of protection. ESA, IAC2, IESO are good places to start but they are not the end. You the inspector and are responsible for the mold inspection and any sampling conducted. Why did you sample here or there --- because someone told me to?

I highlighted the wrong part of EPA quote in the post above.

"Sampling for mold should be conducted by professionals who have specific experience in designing mold sampling protocols, sampling methods, and interpreting the results." EPA

If you have to ask, you perhaps need to work for someone and not sell yourself to the unsuspecting public as a mold inspector.

Don't intend to be blunt but that's the way I see it. Arkansas has cleaned up the mold business and hopefully many other states will.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Your last posts, Doug, has shown a very ugly side of you. Been hanging around Mr.Connelly lately? (For those you who do not know who Mr. Conelly is or was his name Conell, who he is does not matter: he use to post on this board about mold and downgraded home inspectors and mold inspectors.)
We just want an answer to our question about the two samples required outside. It is okay if you do not know the answer. I do not know either. And it appears even the one who has wrote the IAC2 SOP does not know either (which is making everybody wander who actually wrote the SOP). As Ben has said in other threads, the SOP needs to be read and questioned.

[Douglas Wall]

We just want an answer to our question about the two samples required outside.

We are mold inspectors, after years following folks pretending to do mold inspections I guess I am a little hard on some.

People want a simple answer, one that fits all occasions. There are dozens of excellent books or chapters of reputable books written on sampling for mold. Anyone serious about mold sampling will read them. Every job is different and you design your sampling accordingly. It’s not hard but it is work.

We spend a lot of time and money on workshops, books, classes, etc to find the answers to our questions. The question about the 2 samples implys the person asking it needs more training /education about sampling.
Any answer given on a thread like this would not be enough. (my opinion)


I apologize if I offended anyone, but perhaps some need to do their homework before becoming mold inspectors.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by sgilligan1

Can you please explain why you wrote that two outdoor samples are required when every other training course, standard, or sampling guide only requires one sample. I can see your argument that it is to be more thorough, but there are a lot of other things that are not in the standard that should be in there that are not that would make an inspection and report more thorough.
...

I believe it is one of the best SOPs about mold inspections that exist. It's biased towards InterNACHI inspectors (obviously - you have to be a member of InterNACHI - that's an IAC2 requirement). We believe that the best mold inspectors are members of InterNACHI, and as you can see by the IAC2 SOP, the SOP is designed perfectly for residential and light commerical property inspectors.

Please refer to Section 4.0 of the IAC2 SOP. There is an incredible amount of inspection work to do for your client. What other mold inspection SOP requires an inspection of the roof and skylights, exterior siding and flashing? The idea is to raise the bar and set a higher standard than the rest.

When looking at the SOP, one will see that sampling is only a small part of an IAC2 Complete Mold Inspection.

We compared IAC2 SOP to other standards, and a mold inspection performed to the IAC2 SOP provides information that seems is more relevant, valuable and practical.

In relation to the "2 outdoor samples": High winds may affect the quality of an outdoor sampling that is used in the comparison between indoor and outdoor sampling. Two samples (one at leeward and windward) is preferred over one. The SOP states "If possible" two samples should be taken leeward and windward.

The idea is to have both outdoor samples located in areas where the devices will collect a representative sampling of the air that may enter the building through the entry door or nearby open windows. If that opening is at a door off a cantilevered deck for a 3rd floor, 1-level apartment, then that may be the place you choose. You and your client guide the inspection process and agree to your services prior to performing the inspection. What is absent in the SOP should be agreed to prior to performing your mold inspection service.

The SOP allows "wiggle room." Quote: "Financial or time constraints may limit the number and location of samples that can be taken." And also there is a choice you have between performing a "Limited" or "Complete" mold inspection according to the SOP.

Hope this helps.