45 degree slope of 3" waste pipe?

[dthomas2]

Originally Posted by lcapaul

Dennis,
Here's a link to chapter 7 of the UPC

http://www.iapmo.org/common/ROP2004/...eprint/ch7.pdf

(If you want to see other chapters just change ch7 to whatever number you want.

Where are our plumbing guru's? I'm not sure about the verticle drop in the horizontal drain lines using 45's, but I think your statement "I noted in these reports that elevation changes accomplished in this way will eventually cause problems and should be changed to 90 degree transitions." was pretty good, although I would have used "May" instead of "will" cause problems and wouldn't have mentioned changing the fitting to 90 degree, I'd leave that up to a plumber

Lewis,

The link is helpful. FYI: 701.2.3 & 706.0. These do not provide exception to the 1/4" per foot to allow the use of the 45 degree connection with extention pipe piece to accomplish the elevation change. Yet, the old pro's (mentioned above) have not noted problems with this type of junction. ??? Note that the section you provided above talks about the "stack" (a vent?) Most important, veridical is assumed not "out of plumb" and horizontal is assumed not "out of plumb" and connections to these span only the radius of the bend, i presume, and not the length of adjoining pipe. I presented the question to those at the 'link.' Again, Thanks.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Dennis,

The answer to your original post is here (apparently, 90's are not allowed) if you are looking for a UPC reference.

706.3 Horizontal drainage lines connecting with other horizontal drainage lines shall enter through forty-five (45) degree (0.79 rad) wye branches, combination wye and one-eighth [1/8] bend branches, or other approved fittings of equivalent sweep.

As for the slopes in the pictures posted, these are just general references as to the "best" installation. In the codes, you will find a requirement for the minimum slope of a drain line, but there is no maximum (it can slope to vertical).

I didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if this was already answered.

[dthomas2]

Originally Posted by jpope

Dennis,

The answer to your original post is here (apparently, 90's are not allowed) if you are looking for a UPC reference.

706.3 Horizontal drainage lines connecting with other horizontal drainage lines shall enter through forty-five (45) degree (0.79 rad) wye branches, combination wye and one-eighth [1/8] bend branches, or other approved fittings of equivalent sweep.

As for the slopes in the pictures posted, these are just general references as to the "best" installation. In the codes, you will find a requirement for the minimum slope of a drain line, but there is no maximum (it can slope to vertical).

I didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if this was already answered.

Jeff,

Thanks for coming back to this. My manuals contradict your comments so please stand by while I find these "manual" comments and post for you. This is not to challenge your intelligence but to help be get to the bottom of what I think I understand. Thanks again for your help.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by dthomas2

My manuals contradict your comments so please stand by while I find these "manual" comments and post for you.

You will find many references in manuals and other publications to contradict that statement, as I said, those will show the "preferred" method of installation - too much slope, problem - too little slope, problem.

My statement is with regard to the codes. There is no "maximum" slope for a drain line. It can be vertical (picture a wet vent).

Preferred methods and codes do not always go hand in hand.

I'm out the door for the day, I'll check in while I'm sitting in traffic

[dthomas2]

Originally Posted by dthomas2

Jeff,

Thanks for coming back to this. My manuals contradict your comments so please stand by while I find these "manual" comments and post for you. This is not to challenge your intelligence but to help be get to the bottom of what I think I understand. Thanks again for your help.

Again, thanks to all as I have found the error of my ways -
here is a lesson to be learned:

Waste Drain Slope:

1. “2.2.2 INSIDE THE HOUSE

Vertical Pipes Are Good Dumping the water into a vertical pipe (stack) is easy… The waste drops straight down and does not tend to get hung up anywhere.
Sloped Pipes Are Tricky When the pipes aren’t vertical, life gets more complicated. We don’t want horizontal pipes because the waste would not flow. We certainly don’t want pipes with an uphill slope, because everything would collect at the low spot. Slope is usually ¼ to ½ inch per foot down away from the fixture. Maybe it would be better to have even more slope. Believe it or not, this is a bad idea. The solid and liquid waste will move nicely through the pipe with a ¼ t ½ inch slope, but if the slope is greater, the liquid will wash by quickly and the solids will get hung up on the bottom of the pipe. Once the slope becomes more dramatic, the solids and liquids will both move easily. Pipes with a 45-degree slope or more to the horizontal are considered vertical and called stacks.
[THIS IS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION – “45-degree is considered a vertical pipe” and as such I was wrong to call this out to my client. However, not just any slope less than 45-degree is acceptable – as stated above and just below (or following).]
They can carry solids and wastes effectively. … Flow of waste in a drain system Solid and liquid waste flows in vertical pipes much differently than it does in horizontal systems. In near horizontal pipes we talked about maintaining the slope of the pipe typically between ¼ to ½ inch per foot to have enough velocity to move the liquids and solids along the pipe, but not so much velocity that the liquids would pass the solids by and let the solids get hung up. …”
[More is said here about gentle turns rather than abrupt direction changes. As I stated above that a 90-degree should have been used – well, I matched my mental image with the simplest statement that came to mind. That is to say, if I was to pick the proper transition connection from a box of fittings, I would have properly grabbed the “Waste Tee (or similar)” that accomplishes the 90-degree turn with an internal series of bends that at any tangent point would have a slope specified by the UPC. Again, the outward appearance of the fitting I described correctly but inappropriate and misleading for the conversation at hand.)]
(Page 11/12 of Section Three - from the ASHI@HOME Training System “Plumbing” manual)

This could be a resounding example of the tremendous benefit of the Bulletin Board. When level-headed, calculated dialog are maintained those of use who overlook, minimize, or simply forget a statement in our training can be brought back ‘on-base.’ As we cannot expect to be experts on all subjects it is essential to have this BB resource. Thank you one and all!

[lcapaul]

Dennis,

Have you tried calling the Spokane Building Department and asking one of their Inspectors? Had these houses been converted from septic to sewer systems? Did either of the 45's have cleanouts and did there appear to be any reason , like clearing an obstruction, for the 45's?

By the way I gave you a Green Square for making me think and dig through my references, while looking for this I came across things I had forgotten or didn't know, a good learning experience.

[dthomas2]

Originally Posted by lcapaul

Dennis,

Have you tried calling the Spokane Building Department and asking one of their Inspectors? Had these houses been converted from septic to sewer systems? Did either of the 45's have cleanouts and did there appear to be any reason , like clearing an obstruction, for the 45's?

By the way I gave you a Green Square for making me think and dig through my references, while looking for this I came across things I had forgotten or didn't know, a good learning experience.

Lewis,

I am not familiar with "Green Square" (sounds environmental) but will take it as a compliment. I enjoy combative dialog that does not role over to slanderous or insulting. Hope we can continue with similar tone.

This was something that I had to did out of my manuals - but would not have done if people would have given up. Your post put me to an area that encouraged me to continue on my hunt. Did you find this link with 'google' or did you buy into a book, etc...?
__________________

[lcapaul]

Originally Posted by dthomas2

Lewis,

I am not familiar with "Green Square" (sounds environmental) but will take it as a compliment. I enjoy combative dialog that does not role over to slanderous or insulting. Hope we can continue with similar tone.

This was something that I had to did out of my manuals - but would not have done if people would have given up. Your post put me to an area that encouraged me to continue on my hunt. Did you find this link with 'google' or did you buy into a book, etc...?
__________________

Dennis,

The Green Square is Nachi's attmept at turning the BB into "Survivor", the TV Show, its a popularity rating that you can award others by clicking on the Gold Star at the upper right corner of their posts, you can either award them or "vote them off the island".

I stumbled on that link on google a few months ago while looking for something else, I'd like to find a UPC or IRC for "Dummies", the UPC said what your manual did, but your manual said it in English, good job.

I believe that much of our earlier conflict was partially caused by a third party involved in our dispute over SPI Licensing, I have her on my ignore list temporarily. I had a 45 minute conversation with Dr. Soumi yesterday part of which was about using Subs to do the SPI Portion of the Inspection, you probably won't like what he said, but if you want to email me I'll try to explain what he told me.

I also posted some links yeaterday in the Members Only section of the BB that may interest you in preparing to get yur license, a good link to WSU and a couple of classes being offered in Spokane by the WSPCA, the one on Dec 6th is about WDO and there will be someone there from the WSDA to explain their view on the SPI Issue, the one on Jan 3rd should be great, Hansen, the instructor is known nationwide for her research into Carpenter Ants. I also posted the WSDA Letter to Realtors that shows WSDA's view on the SPI issue.

If you want to talk about SPI or anything regarding WA State Licensing contact me by email, I think we'd get along better without outside agitation.

Lew

[dthomas2]

Lewis,


Thanks, I will contact via e-mail.