Gas supply lines

[Larry D. Kage]

http://members.aol.com/crushstone/cor_aclz.htm

CORROSION OF NONFERROUS METALS IN CONTACT WITH CONCRETE OR MORTAR

Copper (Cu)

Copper embedded in concrete and/or mortar is usually roof flashing. Embedded copper is practically immune to reaction with corrosive alkalies, even if exposed to constant moisture. Copper will not react with dry, hardened concrete and/or mortar. Rainwater leaching, however, may bring chlorides in contact with the metal. Corrosion may occur and result in a green discoloration or runoff. Consequently, chloride admixtures should not be used in concrete if contact with copper is expected.

[David P. Valley]

I've inspected hundreds of copper oil lines (buried in mortar) and I have never seen a single line leak due to mortar surroundings.

Usually when a deteriorated oil tank is replaced, the plumbers abandon the existing line and install another brand new mortar protected copper line.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Is There A Problem With Embedding Copper Tube In Concrete?

There you go again Mike messing with my mind. I was taught as a pup in this state and was a intergal part of new construction to sleeve all copper in the flat plastic sleeves at the pentrations and have observed the long term effect of not being sleeved. Do I flag this on an inspection no, see to many without sleeves. Thanks for the link all we have to do is to keep you on the job.

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by dvalley

I've inspected hundreds of copper oil lines (buried in mortar) and I have never seen a single line leak due to mortar surroundings.

Usually when a deteriorated oil tank is replaced, the plumbers abandon the existing line and install another brand new mortar protected copper line.

We must have more corrosive concrete up here

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by cbottger

There you go again Mike messing with my mind. I was taught as a pup in this state and was a intergal part of new construction to sleeve all copper in the flat plastic sleeves at the pentrations and have observed the long term effect of not being sleeved. Do I flag this on an inspection no, see to many without sleeves. Thanks for the link all we have to do is to keep you on the job.

Charley. I think sleeving makes sense too especially through block or poured walls where settling can occur. Not so much a corrosion issue as a mechanical damage issue for me.

[David C. Macy]

I thought I would share an experience at my own home pertaining to a copper water line buried in the basement concrete floor.

My main water line developed a leak and it was from being buried in the concrete.

The plumber that repaired the line stated that the concrete will accelerate the deterioration of the copper.

The new line is at the inside of the outside wall instead of in the middle of the basement.

The pipe was about 40 years old.

Fortunetly I enrolled in the Ohio water line program & saved about 3K.

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by dmacy

I thought I would share an experience at my own home pertaining to a copper water line buried in the basement concrete floor.

My main water line developed a leak and it was from being buried in the concrete.

The plumber that repaired the line stated that the concrete will accelerate the deterioration of the copper.

The new line is at the inside of the outside wall instead of in the middle of the basement.

The pipe was about 40 years old.

Fortunetly I enrolled in the Ohio water line program & saved about 3K.

It seems copper.org is missing something. As stated before I have seen oil lines leaking from being buried in concrete, I don't care what the web site says, I have seen it first hand.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by Jason1

We must have more corrosive concrete up here

I would imagine.

Maybe your Masons' should get together with the Masons' in Massachusetts and ask what the secret is to keeping copper lines free of corrosion (inside mortar).

I've yet to see one copper line leaking from encasing it in mortar.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by Jason1

It seems copper.org is missing something. As stated before I have seen oil lines leaking from being buried in concrete, I don't care what the web site says, I have seen it first hand.

Anecdotal evidence is not proof of causation jason1. Many other factors may have contributed to what you have seen first hand.

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by dvalley

I would imagine.

Maybe your Masons' should get together with the Masons' in Massachusetts and ask what the secret is to keeping copper lines free of corrosion (inside mortar).

I've yet to see one copper line leaking from encasing it in mortar.

Well, like I said, we can't bury them up here anymore because of that problem so it is a moot point.

Interesting how different regions can be, sometimes regions only miles apart are completely different in building practices. *shrug*

[Jason1]

It onlys takes a few insurance claims in one area to change the code

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Let us not forget here that a copper line is not a problem in concrete unless it is a gas line which was the original topic.

Copper and brass pipe shall not be used if the gas contains more than average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfides 100SCF of gas.

Copper tubing shall be of type K or L of ASTM B88.

Underground piping where installed through the outer foundation, basement wall of a building shall be encased in a protective pipe.
The space between the gas piping and the building shall be sealed to prevent entry of gases and/or water.

Piping underground beneath buildings where unavoidable, the piping shall be encased in an appproved conduit designed to withstand the superimposed loads.

Copper, tubing in general should not be installed in concrete containing quickset additives or cinder aggregates.

There are a few of the shall not that cannot be visually inspected here without proper identification of the matrix of the concrete mixes used when originally done and the composition of the gas chemical composition.

I would note in a report that the Local Gas Company should further evaluate this installation.

Reference Material; NFPA 54

Oil Copper lines in a concrete slab. That is a no no. But that is page two. ha. ha.

Your Local AHJ might shed some light on all of this, so that is where I would start.

Hope this helps.

Marcel
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[relliott]

It would be nice to get it straight once and for all.
I have a set of copper water lines buried for a wet bar in my basement since 1957 which have never leaked,yet I have alway's heard that the chemicals in gas deteriorate copper after some time.Think of all the recalled brass flex recalled 15 years ago.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by relliott

It would be nice to get it straight once and for all.

Bob,
check with your local gas provider for the suitability of copper gas line in your area. Natural gas is not the same everywhere.