Need Title 24 (CA) reference for TPR valves

[jhugenroth]

Got a call from a listing agent today, saying that I am wrong for writing up this TPR installation. He says the head of the city plumbing dept. gave it an OK. I am going to meet him there tomorrow to clear it up, but am afraid of a setup. I think the agent is a friend or relative of this guy, because he insists on us seeing him only.
The agent says the plumber he called to look at it said it was OK too.

My title 24 (UPC) reference books are buried in boxes somewhere, because I am remodeling my bedroom and office. If anyone from CA has the code reference for uphill TPR lines, and valves being prohibited, I would appreciate it. I need some ammo for my meeting.

I think valves are addressed in 608.5, but not sure.

[Brian E. Kelly]

I believe uphill Piping is prohibited in 03 upc 608.5

and the no valves part is 03 upc 505.6

Good luck Joe.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by jhugenroth

Got a call from a listing agent today, saying that I am wrong for writing up this TPR installation. He says the head of the city plumbing dept. gave it an OK. I am going to meet him there tomorrow to clear it up, but am afraid of a setup. I think the agent is a friend or relative of this guy, because he insists on us seeing him only.
The agent says the plumber he called to look at it said it was OK too.

My title 24 (UPC) reference books are buried in boxes somewhere, because I am remodeling my bedroom and office. If anyone from CA has the code reference for uphill TPR lines, and valves being prohibited, I would appreciate it. I need some ammo for my meeting.

I think valves are addressed in 608.5, but not sure.

This should answer all your questions .

http://www.myguardian.com/code/tpr/tpr.htm
Print and take with you tomorrow,........Cookie.

[Bruce M. Graham]

no uphill, no other piping tie ins, no valves, no threads, must be within 6"
there is so much wrong with this install it is not even funny.
sock it to them, wasnt' that a saying on laughin, you bet your sweet bippy.

[Joe Farsetta]

Be careful not to state that it is a code violation. Really. Whether you believe it to be true or not, if the City plumbing inspector stated that it is not, then it is not. He is the AHJ, not the inspector. Ths is true regardless of any certification the inspector may have, including ICC certification.

Bring the code information with you, and save it for later in the conversation. Perhaps even more relevent to your argument will be the TPR valve or water heater Manufacturer's installation instructions. See who manufacturers the valve and use that information.

State your concerns, and ask why it is not a code violation. If the person states why, in his opinion it is not, pull out your information, ask them to read it, and then ask them to provide the necessary approvals on their letterhead. be sure and have them sign it, and provide their inspector number or license number below their signature. Have a smile on your face when you ask.

They'll never do it. Bottm line is that it is the crappiest TPR valve installation seen rfecently. Bottom line is we all know it to be unsatisfactory.

Write it upo as being unsatisfactory for reasons of safety, functionality, and manufacturer's installation instructions. Have those instructions handy. They will always trump the inspector or plumber's opinion.

[Greg Bell]

Use the code as a means of defense. We may not have authority but we can read and understand what the code states.

[jhugenroth]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Be careful not to state that it is a code violation. Really. Whether you believe it to be true or not, if the City plumbing inspector stated that it is not, then it is not. He is the AHJ, not the inspector. Ths is true regardless of any certification the inspector may have, including ICC certification.

Bring the code information with you, and save it for later in the conversation. Perhaps even more relevent to your argument will be the TPR valve or water heater Manufacturer's installation instructions. See who manufacturers the valve and use that information.

State your concerns, and ask why it is not a code violation. If the person states why, in his opinion it is not, pull out your information, ask them to read it, and then ask them to provide the necessary approvals on their letterhead. be sure and have them sign it, and provide their inspector number or license number below their signature. Have a smile on your face when you ask.

They'll never do it. Bottm line is that it is the crappiest TPR valve installation seen rfecently. Bottom line is we all know it to be unsatisfactory.

Write it upo as being unsatisfactory for reasons of safety, functionality, and manufacturer's installation instructions. Have those instructions handy. They will always trump the inspector or plumber's opinion.

You must be reading my mind. All us Joe's think alike.

I have already printed out a word document with the photo at the top, and a few lines underneath where it says that he certifies that the installation meets current city codes as of this date. If he refuses to sign, then who knows what will happen? It will be interesting to say the least. The RE agent says that he paid for the plumber to come out, and he found nothing wrong with the installation. (Don't think I'll use that plumber for anything!!)

So the agent wants me to pay for the plumber if the AHJ says it is OK.
I smell a setup, and I am thinking he might know this guy or maybe it's his brother-in-law. He insisted that we talk to the head of the plumbing dept. only. I am going in about an hour early and talk to another person in the dept. and get their opinion.

Anyway, thanks to all for the info and I'll let you know how it goes.

The battle never ends, does it?

[jhugenroth]

Originally Posted by gbell

Use the code as a means of defense. We may not have authority but we can read and understand what the code states.

Absolutely. We may not cite code, but it is the basis for how we report.

[Chuck Evans]

It is also inconsistent with the valve manufacturer installation standards, though that is an old valve and I'm not sure who the manufacturer is.

Watts is the largest manufacturer of these vales that I know of and they have documentation published online which clearly states not to do this.
http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/w...upport_t-p.asp

I wouldn't worry about getting into a pissing match with the AHJ or even make comment regarding his approval in your report. Simply state that the installation is inconsistent with most building codes and the manufacturer's installation standards.

If the AHJ tells the buyer/seller "yea, but we allow it," so be it - that's why they are the "Authority" having jurisdiction. Your client has been informed and is now empowered to make their own informed decision regarding the issue.

[Paul Pendley]

Agree with Chuck

[Jeffrey R. Jonas]

Note: This thread is from 9/11/2007... I PM'd Joe H. requesting he post the outcome/update of his scenario. Inquiring minds want to know.

[jhugenroth]

Got PM'ed by Jeffrey Jonas regarding this thread, and after reading through it, found that I never did relate what happened.

Wow, some of you like digging up old threads!

Anyway, I did get into a pissing match with the AHJ, because, well, I felt like it.

This type of installation is common in basements around here, and has been done this way forever.

I e-mailed the city AHJ, who responded with standard bureaucratic nonsense about that being the way it's been done for a long time,
that plumbers are in agreement that it is OK, etc. Never mind the fact that it's against every manufacturer's installation instructions or code.

After contacting several water heater manufacturers, I got an
e-mail from one (I believe it was Rheem) agreeing to the potential dangers of this installation.
(Of course, WE all knew that already)

But now I had some ammunition from a manufacturer's source, which is what I wanted.

I then forwarded this to him, along with my own explanations, and have never heard back from him.

I tried to find the correspondence to post here, but I may have deleted it.

As far as the RE agent goes, let's just say we agree to disagree.

[Jeffrey R. Jonas]

Thanks for the update Joe. Glad to know it didn't wind up biting you in the butt, even though we all know you were correct.