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  #1  
Old 3/1/06, 7:07 PM
Donald W. Johnston Donald W. Johnston is offline
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Question Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

This system has copper fittings and is only used with well water which has a water softener. It only goes to the exterior hose bibs, shop, and drinking water for kitchen. City water supplies the rest of the home in copper pipes. (No Cross-over) Will the PB tubing survive here or should it "always" be recommended for replacement? The owner and buyers should be made aware of its presence at the least.

Vanguard Thermoguard Potable Tubing PB2110 SDR-11
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  #2  
Old 3/1/06, 7:16 PM
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Joseph Hagarty, CMI Joseph Hagarty,  CMI is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

I always recommend replacement of PB 2110 when found.

http://nachi.org/forum/showthread.php?p=10909#post10909



Joseph P. Hagarty
joseph.hagarty@comcast.net
Main Line Inspections, Inc.
Phone: 610-399-3675
Email: MainLineHI@comcast.net

http://pa.nachi.org/mainlinepa/about.html
http://www.householdinspector.com

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NACHI Education Committee Member
PA NACHI Certified Inspector # 01102902
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  #3  
Old 3/1/06, 8:13 PM
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rbunzel rbunzel is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

It my understanding that chlorine and fluoride are the suspect culprits causing the deterioration of the PB. Since this system is not exposed to that, deterioration should not be a major concern. It is always wise and prudent to disclose that there have been issues and educate the client to the point where they can make a good/bad decision. If you make it for them you assume the liability for that decision.

//Rick
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  #4  
Old 3/1/06, 8:27 PM
Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Yes, it is okay until it leaks...then the damage the leaking causes can be substantial.

I agree with Joe in recommending replacement of PB 2110 when found.
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  #5  
Old 3/1/06, 8:33 PM
Donald W. Johnston Donald W. Johnston is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

That's why I thought the PB would not deteriorate as quickly too. And in this usage it was not as great a safety concern to me. It is setup as a seasonal system too. I plan to give the clients some background about PB and leave the decision to them.

Thoughts from anyone else?

Donald
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  #6  
Old 3/1/06, 9:07 PM
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Joseph Hagarty, CMI Joseph Hagarty,  CMI is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Donald:

You can minimize the consequence of PB 2110 all you like.

You can point out the decreased likelihood of failure in Well Water Service.

You can point out the Seasonal factors of use of the property.

Bottom Line. You will be News at 11 when the Pipe Fails.

What will be your defense then?



Joseph P. Hagarty
joseph.hagarty@comcast.net
Main Line Inspections, Inc.
Phone: 610-399-3675
Email: MainLineHI@comcast.net

http://pa.nachi.org/mainlinepa/about.html
http://www.householdinspector.com

National President / NACHI (2003-2004)
NACHI Education Committee Member
PA NACHI Certified Inspector # 01102902
Delaware Licensed Home Inspector # H4-071
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  #7  
Old 3/1/06, 10:03 PM
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Jay Moge Jay Moge is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

also too many recalls on pb (from what i've read here in the past) for me to say it's ever o.k. well that's wrong, is o.k. to use PB in one area............the dumpster. (ha ha ha. i kill me.)
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  #8  
Old 3/1/06, 10:04 PM
Doug Edwards Doug Edwards is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

It is only a recomendation or suggestion. It costs you nothing to give it but may save you hundreds maybe thousands of dollars. What they decide to do with your recommendation is immaterial. Once you have given it the onus is on them to make a decision. I had a fella last year that did not take mine on PB and his dog woke him up at 3 AM and the hall bathroom was flooded on an off-grade house. He called me to tell me he wished he had listened to me but figured he had plenty of time to get around to it later. He was wrong. I always tell them, it will usually break on a 3 day week-end and you can't get a plumber until Tuesday. They always laugh but they get the point.
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  #9  
Old 3/2/06, 3:42 AM
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Russel Ray Russel Ray is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

There is still disagreement among many people, including plumbers. Here's what I use (note that plumbers are licensed in the State of California, and home inspectors are not, which fact is the underlying cause for my specific recommendation).

Quote:
Active water supply pipes appeared to be polybutylene plastic (hereafter, “PB”). It is believed that chlorine and fluorine react with PB, causing pipes to scale, flake, and become brittle. Micro‑fractures result, and the basic structural integrity of the system is reduced, thereby becoming weak and possibly leaking without warning. A home inspection cannot determine if PB water supply pipes are about to leak simply by looking at the outside of the pipes since they apparently deteriorate from the inside, and they can split or burst under pressure at any time. Insurance companies are known to decline to offer insurance on homes with PB water supply pipes because of associated problems with it. For helpful information about PB pipes and a class-action lawsuit, click here, click here, and click here. Recommend further evaluation by a licensed plumbing professional before close of escrow.

Last edited by rray; 3/2/06 at 3:47 AM..
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  #10  
Old 3/2/06, 7:37 AM
Joseph Hagarty,  CMI's Avatar
Joseph Hagarty, CMI Joseph Hagarty,  CMI is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rray
There is still disagreement among many people, including plumbers. Here's what I use (note that plumbers are licensed in the State of California, and home inspectors are not, which fact is the underlying cause for my specific recommendation).
In PA, Home Inspectors are required to be certified and insured. Contractors (Carpenters, Plumbers, Electricians etc...) are not. The greater burden of responsibility here is on the Home Inspector in making the right call.



Joseph P. Hagarty
joseph.hagarty@comcast.net
Main Line Inspections, Inc.
Phone: 610-399-3675
Email: MainLineHI@comcast.net

http://pa.nachi.org/mainlinepa/about.html
http://www.householdinspector.com

National President / NACHI (2003-2004)
NACHI Education Committee Member
PA NACHI Certified Inspector # 01102902
Delaware Licensed Home Inspector # H4-071
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  #11  
Old 3/2/06, 3:05 PM
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

For helpful information about PB pipes and a class-action lawsuit, click here, click here, and click here.

Ah yes, it would be nice to be able to give the client links within the report, but alas, I am using Inspectvue.
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  #12  
Old 3/2/06, 3:21 PM
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Can't put links in the report w/ inspectvue? I did not know that.
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  #13  
Old 3/2/06, 5:18 PM
Donald W. Johnston Donald W. Johnston is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

I used what Russel wrote above and recommended replacement of the tubing as Joseph suggested. I also gave the clients links to 3 websites that discuss this. And I contacted Vanguard, the vendor. They confirmed PB (of course =D>) and gave me the information about the lawsuit. The client will receive that too.

Thank you to everyone for your direction!

Donald
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PB Litigation Fact Sheet.pdf (25.4 KB, 8938 views)




Donald Johnston, Jr.
Qualified Inspections, Inc.
Springdale, Arkansas
http://www.qualifiedinspections.com/
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  #14  
Old 5/28/14, 3:15 AM
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Joseph Hagarty, CMI Joseph Hagarty,  CMI is offline
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Received a recent email and call from an individual.. (not my client)
questioning an Inspection Report....
(from someone in another State / Province...

That Polybutylene Pipe / PB 2110 is somehow "Acceptable" and "Grandfathered" under some sort of perceived Building Code....

Polybutylene PB2110 must always be recommended to be replaced under all circumstances.

I Repeat....

Polybutylene PB2110 must always be recommended to be replaced under all circumstances.



Joseph P. Hagarty
joseph.hagarty@comcast.net
Main Line Inspections, Inc.
Phone: 610-399-3675
Email: MainLineHI@comcast.net

http://pa.nachi.org/mainlinepa/about.html
http://www.householdinspector.com

National President / NACHI (2003-2004)
NACHI Education Committee Member
PA NACHI Certified Inspector # 01102902
Delaware Licensed Home Inspector # H4-071

Last edited by jhagarty; 5/28/14 at 3:34 AM..
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  #15  
Old 5/28/14, 9:48 AM
Kenneth A. Ramm Kenneth A. Ramm is online now
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Default Re: Polybutylene Okay Anytime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhagarty View Post
Received a recent email and call from an individual.. (not my client)
questioning an Inspection Report....
(from someone in another State / Province...

That Polybutylene Pipe / PB 2110 is somehow "Acceptable" and "Grandfathered" under some sort of perceived Building Code....

Polybutylene PB2110 must always be recommended to be replaced under all circumstances.

I Repeat....

Polybutylene PB2110 must always be recommended to be replaced under all circumstances.
Obviously someone is writing soft reports.





Kenneth (Kenny) Ramm
608-438-3986
rammhomeinspections@gmail.com
Home Inspections in Madison WI
Home Inspections in South Central WI

Wisconsin License 2516-106
InterNACHI #12101905
Home Inspections in Madison, WI and surrounding communities.
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