Shower pan testing protocol

[William E. Siegel]

not testing anshowre pan is like not walking the roof (but we wont go there with this dicussion).

[escanlan]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

not testing anshowre pan is like not walking the roof (but we wont go there with this dicussion).

So Bill, you don't walk roofs? "But we won't go there with this discussion".

[ron s. De Mott]

I take pictures under the pan and use the moisture meter in the same finished areas. I do note in the report that " no present signs of leaks were noted at the inspection, however, these type of structures are known to leak and are very costly to repair." Thats about as much time I feel I have to spend on them. The stopper sounds like a good idea, but how long does it take for a leak to show itself in finished areas, alot of the time not in the two to three hour inspection.

[Joe D. Funderburk]

Originally Posted by rdemott

The stopper sounds like a good idea, but how long does it take for a leak to show itself in finished areas, alot of the time not in the two to three hour inspection.

"I find about a dozen leaking per year."

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

Apparently you didn't read Paul King's post about how many leaking showers he finds per year during an inspection. Say a tile shower leaks 1/2" above the bottom of the shower. You won't find that during normal testing. But the issue may arise about a year after you did the inspection in the form of a letter from an attorney wanting you to pay for re-building the shower. The tiles alone will cost > $500. Personally, I don't want a leak to "show itself" after my client buys the home.

DISCLAIM THEM. Testing shower pans is technically exhaustive and beyond the scope. That sort of nonsense could be extended into almost any system in the home. If you start testing them, you set a precedent in your area and will become responsible for leaks in any home you inspect and who knows what else. It looks like a real can of worms to me.

[David A. Andersen]

Addressing the original question: I do not recommend "walking away" during testing.

You never know what might happen when you're not around. The drains could eventually stop up and overflow the curb.

I had a near catastrophe on one occasion in a very large home. I was testing the whirlpool tub. The drain stop did not hold and while I was inspecting the rest of the massive master suite the Jets shot water all over the place.
Luckily the entire master bath was tile and was okay after a speedy cleanup.

Personally I feel that using a drain stop properly used is appropriate. Higher water elevation increases pressure and may find a leak otherwise unobservable.

I do not use one. I stand in the middle of the road on this one. I operate the shower for an extended period of time while I am in the bathroom. If it does not leak during this "normal usage", I think I'm covered. Although there is a standard as to how high the shower pan should be constructed, there is no standard for inspecting shower pans. Should the water be elevated 1.5 inches or 2.0 inches. If you make a mistake and reached 2.25 inches you may be responsible for the leak damage. What is the probability of water levels reaching 2 inches in a properly constructed shower? If someone leaves a washcloth over the drain? That's a "flooding condition" and the homeowner is going to have to prove the elevation of the water to call me at fault.

Another thing I do not test is bathtub overflows. I have had a few tubs fill to the overflow (because the whirlpool jets are only inches below the overflow in some designs) while inspecting other bathroom components and too many of the few that reached the overflow leaked due to improper installation. Because the probability of leakage is high, I don't think there's any reason to intentionally go there. If someone in the family overflows the tub and it leaks, well, so be it. There is nothing in the state standards of practice requiring this testing, so I just don't do it.

Overflowing the bathtub is not "normal operation" for the homeowner. I limit my inspections to the normal operation of the house and the inspection of "existing conditions". So, if the tile shower is leaking, there is evidence there somewhere. If it's visual, I'm required to report it. If not, it's not part of my job description.

Do not get me wrong, I do not hide behind the standards of practice for "not doing something". We just must draw a line somewhere. As I said, mine is in the middle of the road on this one.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by kshepard

DISCLAIM THEM. Testing shower pans is technically exhaustive and beyond the scope. That sort of nonsense could be extended into almost any system in the home. If you start testing them, you set a precedent in your area and will become responsible for leaks in any home you inspect and who knows what else. It looks like a real can of worms to me.

Please explain what is so technically exhaustive about raising the water level in a shower stall I have a pet monkey that can do that. Sorry that just raises my hair. We are responsibile for leaks within a home that is why they hire us.

I have been inspecting shower stall for 12 years and average at least one a month leaking I have found as many as two in one week. I would not be able to look in the mirror every morning just thinking what I might have missed.

Reguards the shower pan Terriorist

[David A. Andersen]

Reguards the shower pan Terriorist

......

[Jae Williams]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Addressing the original question: I do not recommend "walking away" during testing.



Another thing I do not test is bathtub overflows.

Me, too--neither.

Bathtub, shower, and sink overflows are not tested for leaks because of water damage that could result from such testing. Plumbing for the overflow is generally concealed within the walls and cannot be inspected properly.

[Joe Hugenroth]

No signs of moisture stains or damage prior to testing this shower pan. Note the second photo with water running out into the patio from under the exterior wall.

9863 Cascade 001 (45) (Small).jpg

9863 Cascade 001 (48) (Small).jpg

[escanlan]

Originally Posted by jhugenroth

No signs of moisture stains or damage prior to testing this shower pan. Note the second photo with water running out into the patio from under the exterior wall.

Attachment 25223

Attachment 25224

Looks like damaged sheetrock and baseboard to the right of the shower, in the corner there. It appears that this leak has been occurring for awhile.

[David A. Andersen]

This is a very interesting thread and very enlightening.

I can't believe we have not heard from the legal scaredy-cats! They must be back there pulling their hair out!

When I read some of the stuff here about how someone is going to misconstrue some far-fetched Wizard of Oz scenario, it makes my stomach curdle.

In this instance, we are testing a plumbing fixture by altering how it normally functions and how it is used. The result of the test, is water pouring out of the side of the house! Then we have those moldy guys hanging around waiting for a drip of water to activate the petri dish and spread black plague throughout the house. I just don't know what to think about this one!

I agree that the defect requires consideration, however if a home inspector comes into my house and floods it out and leaves, telling me I have to replace my shower that has not leaked in 15 years of living here, I think I might have something to say about that!

Where are all the guys that are afraid of turning on an air conditioner at 65°?
You can't do that because it might damage something. Yeah right!
Well daaaaaaaaa..... if I plug up this shower drain, might something happen?
It's not that the test should not be done, it's about how the test is done that bothers me.

I filled up a whirlpool tub one-time in a new construction inspection and when I pulled the drain stop, it flooded the basement, the entire tub of water! The plumbing contractor did not install the tailpiece! I felt pretty bad about that one and it wasn't even remotely my fault!

Anyone have a national testing protocol standard to share?

[Charley L. Bottger]

I don't know about a national standard but I have one of my own. Shower pan liners are basically 6 inches in height and I raise the water level to two inches. The tile can be leaking and no detection device will determine this. The problem I have is we went through a housing boom in the late 60 to early and mid 70's tremendous amount of shower stalls with lead pans when the tile starts to leak it can not be detected until it eats away the lead. One can make book that a lead shower pan 30 to 35 years in age is leaking or will be leaking shortly, if it has not been replaced. The new plastic liners that are now being used will be a different story. We found one of the new plastic liners that was leaking at the corner due to improperly folder corner that was detected after the plumber removed the tile

[David A. Andersen]

We all have our standards, they're called business practices.

You do what's right for you and what happens in your area.
Just because you create your own standard does not mean you're wrong just because nobody else does it.

I can just picture Mr. new home inspector stopping up the shower drain and overflowing the shower pan that is not visible.

I would just be more comfortable if someone set a standard for testing.
My state inspection law says we will test the reverse operation of a garage door opener.
When the door breaks, it's not my fault because it's a required test.

I would be more inclined to flood a new construction shower because the builder is standing by to tear it all out and make it right. Whoever put the pan in gets blamed and they are right there. New construction has a more readily available standard for these pans versus a 100-year-old house.

I would also be more inclined to do a first floor shower that has a crawlspace or unfinished basement below.

The shower above a finished ceiling can be evaluated with equipment like infrared camera or a moisture meter and documentation that a leak was not detected at the time of inspection can be reported without the high danger of damaging something from testing.

just some thoughts...

[Jack L. Gilleland]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

Apparently you didn't read Paul King's post about how many leaking showers he finds per year during an inspection. Say a tile shower leaks 1/2" above the bottom of the shower. You won't find that during normal testing. But the issue may arise about a year after you did the inspection in the form of a letter from an attorney wanting you to pay for re-building the shower. The tiles alone will cost > $500. Personally, I don't want a leak to "show itself" after my client buys the home.

Hey Joe did I say I don't inspect showers? I look for evidence of a leak that may have happened. Unfortunately, you can get anything to leak if you work at it hard enough. If I can't find a leak during normal operation then whatever fixture I am testing is considered okay. Do you plug the drain on a dishwasher to see if the door seal leaks.
How many of the showers would he have found leaking without filling the basin? I find a few of them during a years inspecting, but not by filling the pan with water.