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  #1  
Old 8/30/08, 11:42 PM
John Cahill John Cahill is offline
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Default Shut off valves required?

Are shut off valves for fixtures such as sinks and toilets required by IRC code? Does INACHI SOP require missing fixture shut offs to be described? Is absence of a fixture shut off deficient?

I. Inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.

I read the above as
I. Inspect and describe the water supply . . . . . . shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.

INACHI SoP appears to require a fixture shut off valve to be descirbed. If it were not present then it appears one would have to say "not present".

Thank you.

Last edited by jcahill; 8/30/08 at 11:48 PM..
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  #2  
Old 8/31/08, 12:18 AM
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Bob Elliott Bob Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

2003 IRC P2903.9.3
Says they are required at all pipes supplying fixtures other than showers and tubs.

But common sense says forget code and let them know the pain of bursting supply pipes with no handy shutoff.

We recommend!
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Old 8/31/08, 12:18 AM
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jgilleland jgilleland is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

The way I read it is that individual fixture supply valves are not required to be described since in many areas they are not required at all.

But I do agree with Bob that you should let the client know that they are a life-saver sometimes.



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  #4  
Old 8/31/08, 12:31 AM
John Cahill John Cahill is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgilleland
The way I read it is that individual fixture supply valves are not required to be described since in many areas they are not required at all.
We need an English major or attorney here. This is how the sentence reads per its structure and punctuation.

I. Inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.

Break it down

I. Inspect and describe the water supply. . . . valves.

A shut off valve is a valve. It is related to water. Therefore you must describe the valve if it is there. If it is not there it appears you do not have to report that.
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Old 8/31/08, 10:27 AM
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gbeaumont gbeaumont is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Hi John,

I don't believe that our current SOP addresses fixture shut-off valves at all, interestingly the insurance carriers down here require us to verify the presence of all required fixture shut-off valves when we are conducting "4 point" inspections.

I believe our SOP should be expanded to "Verify the presence or lack of required fixture shut-offs" Interestingly we are not required to operate said valves, just to note whether the're there or not.

Regards

Gerry



"To realize our true destiny, we must be guided not by a myth from our past, but by a vision of our future."
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  #6  
Old 8/31/08, 11:43 AM
John Cahill John Cahill is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbeaumont
I don't believe that our current SOP addresses fixture shut-off valves at all.
NACHI SoP clearly address fixture valves in limitations.

H. Not required to . . . Operate any main, branch or fixture valve.

What is a fixture valve, shut off valve and supply valve? NACHI uses all of these terms.

I say a fixture valve is the handle or lever a user operates to make the water flow under normal use.

There is a main shut off valve and there are fixture shut off valves.

A fixture valve can be confused with the fixture and shut off.

NACHI SoP exclude operation of fixture valves except for two operated simutaneosly. NACHI does not exclude shut off valves of any type. NACHI requires the inspector to describe all water valves. That would include fixture and main shut off / supply valves but not fixture valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbeaumont
I don't believe that our current SOP addresses fixture shut-off valves at all. . . . . Interestingly we are not required to operate said valves, just to note whether the're there or not.
The SoP do not require you to note if the shut off / supply valve is present or not. It requires you to describe the valve. If the valve is not present you cannot describe it therefore no comment is required.

NACHI SoP definition for inspect does not include concept of operation therefore unless the SoP specifically state you must operate an item you do not have to. There are only 7 items in the SoP an inspector has to operate. One applies to two fixtures operated simultaneously. All an inspector has to do is operate two fixtures simultaneously and all other fixtures can be ignored.

Last edited by jcahill; 8/31/08 at 11:47 AM..
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  #7  
Old 8/31/08, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Hi John,

I'm not sure that we are on the same page in terms of vocabulary.

I would use the term "fixture shut-off valve" to describe the valve that isolates the fixture from the supply system, in effect the local service shut off, I would not use that term when discussing the fixture tap or toilet flush handle.

Regards

Gerry



"To realize our true destiny, we must be guided not by a myth from our past, but by a vision of our future."
(Mark B Adams)

Commercial property Inspection Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Jacksonville, Ft Launderdale, Miami, Florida.
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NACHI02121106

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  #8  
Old 8/31/08, 12:48 PM
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Bob Elliott Bob Elliott is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

The way I interprut is that the valve must be only for that fixture , but can be say on the basement ceiling , and not limited to near the fixture.

No problem in noting how code is minimal in this situation, as we have expectations of better.
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  #9  
Old 8/31/08, 2:43 PM
John Cahill John Cahill is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Gerry and all, I think we are on the same page I am not making myself clear. The SoP use many definitions some of which can conflict.

A plumbing system has
  • Service provider valve at curb or property line in accordance with local requirements.
  • Main shutoff valve near entrance of water service to dwelling unit.
  • An individual shutoff valve on the fixture supply pipe to each plumbing fixture other than bathtubs and showers.
  • A fixture has a valve(s) for every day occupant use.
Disregarding back flow there are 4 locations.

NACHI refers to valves in several ways.
  • Main water shut off valve.
    • NACHI SOP: Inspector shall verify the presence of and identify the location of the main water shutoff valve.
      • Is this the main water service shutoff intended for occupant use?
      • Is this the service provider shutoff valve?

  • Water supply . . . . . valve
    • NACHI SOP: Inspector shall inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.
  • Does this mean inspect the “water supply” or the “water supply shutoff valves”?
  • NACHI SOP: Inspector shall inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.
  • Does this mean “water main shut off valves” or “water main”?
  • If it is “water main shut off valve” does that mean the service provider shutoff valve or the occupant main shutoff valve?
  • If it is the occupant main shutoff valve it seems redundant to item 1 above in regards to requirement to identify.
  • Shut off valves
    • NACHI SOP: The inspector is not required to inspect interiors of flues or chimneys, water softening or filtering systems, well pumps or tanks, safety or shut-of valves, floor drains, lawn sprinkler systems or fire sprinkler systems.
    • NACHI Definition = Inspect: To visually look at readily accessible systems and components safely, using normal operating controls and accessing readily accessible panels and areas in accordance with these Standards of Practice.
  • Inspector is not required to “inspect” shutoff valves. Does this mean inspector is not required to look at or operate the service provider shut off; occupant main service shutoff or fixture shut offs?
  • main, branch or fixture valve
    • NACHI SOP: The inspector shall run water in sinks, tubs, and showers.
    • NACHI SOP: The inspector is not required to operate any main, branch or fixture valve.
  • Is the main valve referred to above the service provider valve or the main occupant shutoff valve?
  • Is the “branch valve” referred to above the main occupant shut off valve” or the fixture shut valve?
  • Is the fixture valve the fixture shut off valve or the fixture valve? If it is the shutoff then what is the branch valve?
  • manual stop valves
    • Not required to test, operate, open or close safety controls, manual stop valves and/or temperature or pressure relief valves.
  • What is a manual stop valve?
  • any shut off valves and manual stop valves
    • NACHI exclusion: The inspector is not required to operate any shut off valves or manual stop valves.
  • Is a shut off valve the fixture shut off valve; the occupant main shutoff valve and the service provider shutoff valve?
  • What is a manual stop valve?
  • water supply valve
    • NACHI Definition = Activate: To turn on, supply power, or enable systems, equipment, or devices to become active by normal operating controls. Examples include turning on the gas or water supply valves to the fixtures and appliances and activating electrical breakers or fuses.
  • Is a water supply valve the service provider valve, the occupant main shut off valve, the fixture shut off valve or the fixture valve? All of the above are “water supply valves to fixtures”.
It seems NACHI needs to define the 4 valves and then use the terms consistently. Also need to avoid conflicts between requirements and limitations. Paint bucket arrived. Off to paint. John
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Old 9/1/08, 10:31 PM
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jgilleland jgilleland is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

John - I suppose I thought I understood it, but I can see where it could be interpreted several was. Maybe someone could jump in here and clarify. I suppose I note the existence of all fixture valves (the valves serving the sinks, lavatories, commodes and etc.), I have a picture of all that I've ever inspected.
I. Inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.
If all of the above represent valves then we should look for the drain and waste valves.



In the world view we are all important and our mere existence effects all life.

Jack Gilleland
Home Inspection Services Clayton
Commercial, Multifamily, and Residential
jgilleland1@att.net
Ohio_Commercial and_Home_Inspections
linkedIn
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  #11  
Old 9/1/08, 10:52 PM
John Cahill John Cahill is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgilleland
John - I suppose I thought I understood it, but I can see where it could be interpreted several was. Maybe someone could jump in here and clarify. I suppose I note the existence of all fixture valves (the valves serving the sinks, lavatories, commodes and etc.), I have a picture of all that I've ever inspected.
I. Inspect and describe the water supply, drain, waste and main fuel shut-off valves, as well as the location of the water main and main fuel shut-off valves.
If all of the above represent valves then we should look for the drain and waste valves.
You are right. No one is wrong. The Standard is not standard because it can be interpreted different ways. Easy to fix however. Just define the valves and use consistent terms in the SoP.

Service provider shutoff
Main occupant shutoff
Branch fixture shutoffs
Fixtures
Drain valves (water heaters and boilers; are there others?)

Once common terms are defined and used the standard becomes standard.
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  #12  
Old 9/2/08, 1:07 AM
Dan Bowers, CMI Dan Bowers, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Shut off valves required?

SOP -

We do identify MAIN water shut-off.

WE don't (unless we want to) identify shut-offs at each fixture.

Codes -

In my area on a 15 year old house or older - fixture shut-offs were nice, but not required. On a 2 year old house they should be there.
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