Engineer Vs. Inspector

[Harold E. Miller]

David
I don't personally see any reason for evaluation by a structural engineer based on what I can see in your photos. If the cracks exceed 3/4" and have some other condition associated with them like differential settling, or buckling, etc. then I recommend an additional inspection by licensed structural engineer and a licensed professional foundation contractor. These cracks appear to be very common, and not structurally significant.
The water intrusion issue is important to address however. Steps need to be taken to identify any sources of adverse drainage from gutters, and exterior slope. An old home may really need a perimeter footing drain installed and water proofing. All things that your client needs direction on.

[Russel Ray]

Well, the licensed structural engineer also designs the repairs if such needs to be done and then provides the repair specifications to the contractor.

Here in earthquake land, many people like the extra level of comfort that a licensed structural engineer provides since they usually are familiar with the various soils, structure construction over the years, current seismic requirements and design specifications, etc.

[ccoombs]

When I'm asked for my "engineering opinion" I try to qualify my answer. I start by telling them, "if you ask 5 engineers you will get 10 opinions."

I would refuse to accept or pay for an engineering report that only stated "monitor." It should state something about the structural integrity of the existing condition and, if required, a repair recommendation.

I believe that a majority of issues between engineers and the general public is the failure to qualify their opinions/evaluations. Structurally acceptable and homeowner acceptable are two very different issues. A basement can fill with water and still be structural sound.

[jhanna1]

David and others! One of the issues that hits me in the face around here (Rochester NY area) is the mind set that an "Engineering Inspection/Report" is needed for a home inspection. I run into this all the time from certain realtors and sometimes even potential clients.
The sad part is that sometimes these types of inspections do not cover the items that I cover in my Home Inspections.
I recently had a realtor tell me that a normal so called Home Inspection was a "No brainer" chuckle chuckle, compared to an Engineering Inspection/Report.
My point here is this is the type of thinking and understanding that can hurt the Home Inspection business. Jim...........

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by jhanna1

The sad part is that sometimes these types of inspections do not cover the items that I cover in my Home Inspections.

Sometimes?

[Harold E. Miller]

Originally Posted by jhanna1

David and others! One of the issues that hits me in the face around here (Rochester NY area) is the mind set that an "Engineering Inspection/Report" is needed for a home inspection. I run into this all the time from certain realtors and sometimes even potential clients.
The sad part is that sometimes these types of inspections do not cover the items that I cover in my Home Inspections.
I recently had a realtor tell me that a normal so called Home Inspection was a "No brainer" chuckle chuckle, compared to an Engineering Inspection/Report.
My point here is this is the type of thinking and understanding that can hurt the Home Inspection business. Jim...........

James
Fortunately in my local area I don't have to compete with the "licensed professional engineer/ home inspector" marketing idea often. I have seen references to this on the internet more than anything.
But it does remind me of an inspection I performed a few years ago on a manufactured home where the bank required an engineers' report on the tie downs and support blocks, etc.
I had been asked by the realtor if I could refer any engineers to provide the report, and I had recalled one area home inspector who advertised as an engineer. I told the agent to check with this inspector to see if he could perform the engineering report.
A couple days later the agent called to schedule another inspection with me and said " Oh by the way I checked with the home inspector/ engineer you told me about....turns out he is Mechanical Engineer"
With Boeing being a large employer in our area, it dawned on me that when they lay off engineers, they have to find work doing something.
I was however not real happy about the fact that the engineer in question was using this label to market his inspection business. Seems unethical when he is not a structural engineer. It really did not impress me much when I thought he was a structural engineer.....think about it. Spend all that money on a degree in engineering to inspect homes? As a buyer do you want to hire the engineer to inspect your home that couldn't cut it as an engineer. These are just a few of the thoughts that have come across my mind.
Not to offend those who are engineer/ inspectors. I am certain there are many that are very good people ,that work hard for their clients, and provide a good service.

[dchew]

If I see foundation structural issues, I generally refer them to a licensed foundation contractor. That way, they can review the issues, provide a quote to repair and repair the problems if requested.

If the foundation contractor thinks it's a soils related problem, then he can refer it to a soils engineer or civil/structural engineer; whoever he thinks it is more capable of determining what caused the problem. The important issue is that the source of the problem gets taken care of by the right profession.

Anybody can make repairs, but if there's a definite cause to the problem and it's not addressed, the problem will remain or possibly be worst off.

[jwilliams7]

Originally Posted by dbowers

Almost forgot the other thought. There are over 45 engineering degrees that I'm aware of, and any can use the term PE in most states by having an engineering degree, 5 years design experience in something, and passing the state engineering exams. In some states (like Missouri & Kansas) in years past if you had design experience and passed the exam, you could be designated a PE and yet never have gotten a degree in anything.

In short a great amount of PE's have no training, knowledge or skills in residential construction, etc. As home inspection has gotten more lucrative and more well known, we see a lot of PE's enter the field and use their PE designation as a marketing tool without having the ??? to back it up.

Not a slam - just a statement. Out of 22-24 PE's active in the Kansas City Home Inspection market, I'd count maybe 5-6 as competent if I needed a "Structural Engineer" - yet most Realtors, lenders, the General Public, etc often think anyone with a PE after their name is a Structural Engineer.

Not only are there 45 different types of engineers, but after we (Civil) take and pass the Professional Engineers exam for each state we can stamp anything related to Civil Engineering in all States except CA and IL. Within Civil alone there are many different areas an engineer can be specialized in, the problem happens when someone who has no experience in foundations decides he or she likes the money. Ethically we are only supposed to stamp what we are experienced in, reality is there are engineers that will rubber stamp anything. For Home Inspection Purposes I would look for a Civil/Structural Engineer that specializes forensics in foundations and soils. Designing a foundation and determining if something is a failure are two different animals altogether.

[David P. Valley]

A mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer and a software engineer are travelling in an old Fiat 500 (Bambino) when all of the sudden the car backfires and comes to a halt.

The mechanical engineer says "Ah! It's probably a problem with the valves, or the piston!".
The electrical engineer says "Nonsense! It's most probably a problem with the spark plugs or the battery!".
The software engineer says "How about we all get out of the car, and get back in again".

[rwand1]

In my opinion they didn't need an engineer to assess that crack. It has been badly patched, and can be properly patched to stop leakage for under $1K. Grading issue are easily fixed for nominal cost. As to footing drains that could cost substantially more, but without excevating no one would know whether it is a footer tile problem.

Just remember Engineers are not trained to be home inspectors, just as home inspectors are not trained to be engineers to different professions.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

I'll second that statement.

Marcel

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by dmacy

The realtor had a structural engineers report and it stated that the cracks where there for a long time and would monitor ... I told the client that the problem was that there is dirt & water coming in and that he should have this further evaluated for repairs.

It does look like there is water penetration from the photos, which is a separate issue from structurally significant cracking. So I think you made the right call.

Note that home inspectors need to be very careful inspecting and reporting on structural issues, including cracking and water penetration, which accounts for almost half of all claims against inspectors from a study by FREA. Many don't realize that even just recommending repair or monitoring is making an assessment of the situation which can get you in trouble. I know of one case where repair of cracking was done as recommended by an inspector. They were both sued as underpinning was needed, and the contractor claimed he was just called in to repair cracking which he did. So when in doubt, bail out.

JMO & 2-nickels ...

[Robert J. OConnor]

P.S. As some others pointed out, residential structural evaluations is a specialized sub-practice area of engineering. In addition to the normal differences of opinions between professionals, some engineers unfortunately think it's easy to perform structural evaluations for residential buildings if they have some design experience. It actually requires specialized training and practical field experience that is not taught in engineering schools, and something many practicing structural engineers don't have.

And even making the call just to monitor the situation (a common engineer's recommendation, even if there are no signs of serious structural issues) can put your butt in a sling if you miss signs of a problem you are expected to be able to identify as an engineer. So don't be fooled into thinking thats a simple call, as that also gets some engineers in trouble.

JMO & 2-nickels as an engineer also ...

[John Onofrey]

Robert,

Where can we view the FREA study that you mention?

[Robert J. OConnor]

I don't know if thats a published study, but if they are your E&O carrier you may want to contact them and also ask for assistance with risk management.