Living in a creosote house

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

1960 house. Entire floor system (joists and subfloor) treated with creosote. Would you have concerns about moving your family into it? Is the potential chemical hazard only relevant to skin contact?

[Andrew Shick]

I just did a quick Google search, and found this. More than I needed to know about creasote:

According to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) (2003), creosote is the generic name for a variety of chemical mixtures commonly known as wood creosote, coal-tar creosote, and coal tar, among others. Creosote mixtures have a smoky odor and vary in color from yellowish to black to dark brown. Creosote is composed of many substances created through burning beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush (ATSDR 2003). Coal-tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States, and was also used in early embalming. This lesser-known embalming agent was sometimes used as an anti-putrefactive, but had an objectionable odor. Creosote has also been used historically as a disinfectant, laxative, cough suppressant, and as a treatment for skin disease. ATSDR (2003) states that components of creosote that do not dissolve in water remain in place in a tar-like mass.

During a search of published literature, no reference to a cemetery excavation in which creosote was identified in the graves was found. Aside from its occasional use as an embalming fluid, it is also possible that creosote was used to treat coffin wood, as it has long been used as a wood preservative. Eating or drinking substances with high levels of creosote may cause a burning sensation and stomach pain. In addition, herbal remedies composed of creosote may cause liver or kidney damage. ATSDR (2003) suggests that brief direct contact with large amounts of coal tar creosote may result in a rash or skin irritation, chemical burns of the eye surface, convulsions, mental confusion, kidney or liver problems, unconsciousness, or death. Longer direct skin contact with low levels of creosote mixtures or vapors may result in increased light sensitivity, corneal damage, and skin damage. Vapor exposure can cause irritation to the respiratory tract. It is suspected that creosote is carcinogenic to humans, and major, long-term exposure (such as wood treatment or manufacture of coal tar creosote treated products) may be related to skin and scrotum cancers. OSHA has not established a substance-specific standard for occupational exposure to coal-tar pitch volatiles (creosote), thus exposures are regulated under the Air Contaminants Standard (29 CFR 1926.55, 1926.1102, and 1926.1129).

It's some pretty bad stuff, but it looks like if the Creasote is only on the bottom of the floor, and no one is having direct daily contact with it, it probably wouldn't hurt you.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

Scrotum cancer?

[Frank Nihei]

You asked...

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

Would you have concerns about moving your family into it?

Yes. I would have serious concerns. My theory is that if you can smell it, you are constantly being exposed.

They used to use coal tar as the active ingredient in dandruff shampoos, but last I heard that was now banned as a use. (Some little detail about skin cancers.)

It's amazing what uses industry has found for its waste products, which is what this is. That way, they don't have to pay for hazmat disposal fees, but actually make a profit off disposing of waste.

The power company down the road has stacks of ready-to-use utility poles in their yard and on a warm day when the wind is blowing across the road, the smell is horrible and dizziness as well as an instant upset stomach can often be the result. And that's just driving past the place.

Interesting when you consider that more than half the power production in the country is from coal-fired plants. I'd bet that's the ultimate source of coal tars.

I'd shudder at the prospect of living atop that toxic pile.

jmo
Frank

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by Frank Nihei

...They used to use coal tar as the active ingredient in dandruff shampoos, but last I heard that was now banned as a use. (Some little detail about skin cancers.)....Frank

Coal tar is used in products to this day. BTW - there are thousands of chemicals in creosote.

Determining if creosote in the foundation framing is a "material defect" would be difficult for the HI to determine. This condition should pointed this out in the report but the determination of any possible adverse effects should most likely be deferred to a specialist.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

This is what I said in my report, much of the text compliments of InspectVue:

"Wooden components within the foundation crawlspace have an odor and brownish tinge which is similar or identical to wood that has been treated with a preservative known as creosote. Creosote is a possible human carcinogen, or a chemical that is capable of causing cancer. However, we do not have the expertise or the authority to identify or comment on chemical carcinogens, or exposure levels and recommend that if this is a concern to you that you consult with an industrial hygienist. More information may be obtained here: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp85.html."

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Back in the 60's, Creosote was a common wood preservative, and used mostly for retaining walls comprising of 6"x6" or 8"x8" or the sort. I could not stand the product when it was fresh and in hot temperatures and anyone that would want to smell the product everyday in a Home is got to be out of their minds.

I used to use # 2 diesel fuel for form oil on concrete forms, because we had nothing else to work with, but I will tell you what, combined with 90 degree temperatures it would cook my skin. Another bad improvised product to accomplish what we had to do back then. So I guess modern Technology is not all that bad when you think of it. ha.

Marcel
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[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

I like the smell of creasote if it's not too strong. I'm attracted to women who put a little dab behind each ear (their ear, not mine).

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

I prefer vanilla extract behind the ears. You're very strange!

[Doug Edwards]

I prefer WD-40 myself

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Uh-oh, getting into lubricants here. This thread should end before it crosses the line into bad taste.

[bandag]

got a good laugh out of those last few posts!! good thing I wasn't eating anything at the time or my monitor would have got blasted.

[Mark S. Elliott]

The question I would ask myself about the presence of creosote in a house is; would I like my kids to live with it. The answer is a very big NO. I studied Industrial Engineering at university in the early 70’s and we were told then that we should not recommend that it not be used due to its cancer related illness found in workers with long exposure to the product.

Creosote contains NAPHTHALENE (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chan12.htm ) which is a particularly nasty chemical used as in dyes and pesticides. Creosote itself contains volition products that some people can become addicted. I must be addicted because I also like the smell of it but I will not go near it now and would never recommend its use and certainly not live in a house that’s been treated with it wherever it was.

Just to drive home my point here is the advice given by the British Government to employers regarding NAPHTHALENE which creosote contains.

What should employers do?

You should give priority to preventing your employees being exposed to naphthalene by any route (ie inhalation, ingestion, or contact with the skin).

Where preventing exposure to naphthalene is not reasonably practicable (eg by using a different substance), then you should adequately control exposure by a combination of engineering and process control measures. HSE recommends that, although the legal obligation is to reduce exposure to the OES while it remains in force, it would be prudent for you to control exposure to as low a level as is reasonably practicable below the OES.

Once the OES is withdrawn, your legal obligation under COSHH remains to achieve adequate control. Since a safe level of exposure cannot be determined it remains our recommendation that you should control exposure to as low a level as is reasonably practicable.

In dealing with exposure, whether before or after the OES is withdrawn, the number of people exposed and the duration of their exposure should be minimized as required by good hygiene practice.

You must give all your employees who are, or who may be exposed to naphthalene, sufficient information, instruction and training to understand the potential problems and the precautions they need to take.

You should make sure that employees, safety representatives or representatives of employee safety are aware of this information and consult on any action that you propose to take as a result.

[Nina Hodges]

We lived in a home made of creosote treated wood for 6 months. It has horrible health effects. It has stolen my families lives and future. I would seriously advise anyone to run as fast as you can away from anything treated with creosote. www.screamwithme.org a cautionary tale!

[Mike G. Howard, CMI]

Good luck to you and your family Nina. Good info.