More attic framing questions (with pictures)

[Richard A. Hetzel]

How much does Nathan think an architect will cost? A good architect can save many times what his fee would be, ensure that all bids received are for the same scope of work, and solve problems in advance, helping construction to go faster and easier, and be solidly on the side of the owner. That sounds like a bargain to me.

Just one "tear-out-and-redo" can cost more than the architect's fee. And what value is lost by living with a situation that would have been done right if an architect were involved, but wasn't? Someone else said wisely that you want to add value, not decrease it. Architects know how to do that.

Maybe an architect might ask something like $2000. That will not necessarily raise the cost of the job by $2000. It may well reduce the cost of the job by more than that. Nathan may be being penny-wise and pound-foolish here, and as someone else pointed out, he's asking for advice from a source where most, while they may be excellent inspectors, are not qualified or licensed to give it.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Richard A. Hetzel

How much does Nathan think an architect will cost? A good architect can save many times what his fee would be, ensure that all bids received are for the same scope of work, and solve problems in advance, helping construction to go faster and easier, and be solidly on the side of the owner.

This was proven time and time again during my many years of building.

Nathan, you would do well to work with experienced and qualifed professionals.

[Nathan W. Swilling]

Originally Posted by prussell

Nathan, I understand all to well about costs and I'm not there to see what you have for a house.

One other thing that has to be considered is this, you said you plan to put a dormer on, I assume it will be on the back? Typically what happens in an old home is when you stand your wall up to make up the dormer and to meet code it usually means that when you try to tie into the old roof your new roof will end up be flat, this is why I said you want to add value not take away.

Again, these are all issues that I deal with on a regular basis, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and I'm not there to see what you have. Some exterior shots of the house would be great.

The house is a front gabled house. The dormer is going to be on one side, in the middle of the roof. It would be a "shed" dormer, where the tie in would be at the apex of the roof.

The construction plan is to build the walls inside the attic, take the shingles off the roof, and then cut the roof on either side of the dormer, raise it up (essentially the top of the roof is like a hinge), and then rest the new roof on the pre-built walls.

[Nathan W. Swilling]

Originally Posted by Richard A. Hetzel

How much does Nathan think an architect will cost? A good architect can save many times what his fee would be, ensure that all bids received are for the same scope of work, and solve problems in advance, helping construction to go faster and easier, and be solidly on the side of the owner. That sounds like a bargain to me.

Just one "tear-out-and-redo" can cost more than the architect's fee. And what value is lost by living with a situation that would have been done right if an architect were involved, but wasn't? Someone else said wisely that you want to add value, not decrease it. Architects know how to do that.

Maybe an architect might ask something like $2000. That will not necessarily raise the cost of the job by $2000. It may well reduce the cost of the job by more than that. Nathan may be being penny-wise and pound-foolish here, and as someone else pointed out, he's asking for advice from a source where most, while they may be excellent inspectors, are not qualified or licensed to give it.

In my area having an architect do what you are suggesting costs around 18% of the total project costs (I know because I asked a few of them to bid on the project), which in this case would mean an architect would cost $15,000 - $18,000. Too rich for my blood.

Just to clarify, I'm not goingi to take the advice I get from an internet message board and run upstairs and cut the roof off my house by myself. I merely am taking the opportunity to kick around some ideas with people who might like to talk about this kind of stuff for fun. As I mentioned elsewhere, the project will have a licensed and insured general contractor, a building permit, and numerous inspections.

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by Nathan W. Swilling

The house is a front gabled house. The dormer is going to be on one side, in the middle of the roof. It would be a "shed" dormer, where the tie in would be at the apex of the roof.

The construction plan is to build the walls inside the attic, take the shingles off the roof, and then cut the roof on either side of the dormer, raise it up (essentially the top of the roof is like a hinge), and then rest the new roof on the pre-built walls.

Never going to happen, you really need to re-think what your doing!!!!!!!

[Nathan W. Swilling]

Here's a picture of the exterior.

[Nathan W. Swilling]

Here's a picture of the plans as drawn up by the architect.

[Nathan W. Swilling]

Originally Posted by prussell

Never going to happen, you really need to re-think what your doing!!!!!!!

Could you be more specific?

[jkogel]

Originally Posted by Nathan W. Swilling

Could you be more specific?

I imagine Peter is referring to you swinging the roof section up, where in actuallity, as you know, it will have to be removed rafter by rafter, a new outer wall section built, then install new rafters, new decking for flat roof.
The area of major concern is at the peak. You are removing the support for the ridge all along one side, then loading the ridge with a flat roof in snow country. There may need to be a beam added under the ridge or some other means to transfer the weight, where that was not an issue for the steep pitched roof.

The other issue is looks. It's a fine looking house at this point. How will it look with a flat roofed dormer?

[Nathan W. Swilling]

There is a central wall that runs "North-South" on every floor of the house. My understanding is that you can build a temporary wall or support under the ridge, and that the weight of the roof is then transferred down the temporary wall through the walls underneath.

Now there is still the horizontal force of the roof as well. I assume that is braced somehow. We're also not removing the entire roof, just a section of it, so the pieces at the ends should help hold the ridge in place, especially if they are beefed up with sistered rafters and new collar ties.

As for the look, about 25% - 30% of the houses on my street have shed dormers. I'm sure they don't make it onto the front pages of the architectural magazines, but I don't think they look too bad

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Nathan W. Swilling

There is a central wall that runs "North-South" on every floor of the house. My understanding is that you can build a temporary wall or support under the ridge, and that the weight of the roof is then transferred down the temporary wall through the walls underneath.

Now there is still the horizontal force of the roof as well. I assume that is braced somehow. We're also not removing the entire roof, just a section of it, so the pieces at the ends should help hold the ridge in place, especially if they are beefed up with sistered rafters and new collar ties.

As for the look, about 25% - 30% of the houses on my street have shed dormers. I'm sure they don't make it onto the front pages of the architectural magazines, but I don't think they look too bad

No offence intended Nathan but you would really benefit from a professional design.

We can't do what needs to be done by looking at a couple of pictures and talking on a message board.

[Richard A. Hetzel]

Nathan, you need to find an architect who does residential additions and alterations as a specialty. To charge 18% for something like you describe is an outrage, even considering that it would include full construction observation. If all architects charged that much, then no one would ever use them, and things would not be done right. All you need is a detailed floor plan (not the sketch floor plan that you posted), a cross-section, about an hour's worth of structural engineering, and three elevations, plus a decent set of specifications. Even at $100/hour, if that can't be done in 20 hours or less, something is wrong somewhere. If the architect does his job right, you don't need construction observation. Many of my jobs are built without so much as a phone call to me after plans are drawn.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by lkage

No offence intended Nathan but you would really benefit from a professional design.

We can't do what needs to be done by looking at a couple of pictures and talking on a message board.

Nathan:

In larger firms, an architectural CET (certified engineering technician) does much of the basic work for the architects. You may be able to find a CET who runs a small house plans firm who will do the work cheaper. Just make sure they've been in business for a while, have extensive experience in renos and not just new homes, and have E&O insurance

PM me and I will send you my home # if you wish to call sometime.

[Peter C. Russell]

John, my thought exactly, I hope he keeps us posted, I for one like to see how the contractor is going to push that roof up like it's hinged, not to mention, what happens to the plumb cuts on the rafter tails, totally different pitch.

Now that I see the exterior of the house there is only one way to do this job, or the only way I would do this job and that is to hire a structural engineer to come up with a framing plan. This needs to be documented by a engineer, at least in my area it would and should be a matter of public record, not to mention the documentation should be in place so in the event of a future real estate transaction proof can be produced that it was done correctly.

In my area I would expect to pay somewhere are 1500.00- 2000.00 for this plan, the rest is easy.

[Richard A. Hetzel]

While there is nothing wrong with using a structural engineer, there is nothing about this project that any good architect would be incapable of doing. An engineer could well be overkill. For the same price one should be able to get architectural advice PLUS engineering. There isn't but about an hour of engineering required.

The idea of "hinging" the roof is, of course, preposterous. If that is what the writer is expecting to do, I see a good dose, unfortunately, of doom in his future, especially if the rest of the project is equally misguided.