Support post for Beam, is this right?

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Brian;

That is what happens when born in the Aroostook County in Maine. You get to be a Jack of All Trades and Master of none. LOL I guess a CMI is out of the question. ha. ha.

Marcel
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My guess Marcel, is if you wanted to spend the money, you could be a CMI. I believe that even jobsite ladder safety classes count towards the designation.

Justa quess mind you.

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by mcyr

This time it is of steel construction and the orientation to the beam is wrong.

Hmmm ... I would have thought the orientation of the plate would be wrong ... not the beam ... . But all kidding in good fun aside, the orientation may not be wrong if you are welding the connection and the plate width closely matches the beam flange width (wouldn't leave enough overlap for a fillet weld).

Originally Posted by mcyr

The top post plate is to thin and the top plate should have been bolted with four A325 bolts.

For a bolted semi-rigid connection absolutely ... and then some maybe. But those types of connections are not usually required for typical residential construction (lateral resistance usually provided by walls, and not the framing ... even in higher risk hurricane/earthquake areas like in my neck of the woods). For the usual simple residential bearing connections thin plates and two (2) A307 lower strength bolts (with the plate turned) usually works fine just to keep things in place if you are going to use bolts.

Originally Posted by mcyr

Minimum weld requirements for this installation in lieu of structural bolts would be two 1/4" fillet welds on both sides of the post cap bearing 1" long.

That sounds about right as a minimum for a simple bearing connection (no lateral load) ... but could be 3/16" fillet welds. Could also be lower grade E60XX weld metal, but some say E70XX weld metal should be used for new connections as good practice. Couldn't resist since we were getting a little deep ...

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by roconnor

That sounds about right as a minimum for a simple bearing connection (no lateral load) ... but could be 3/16" fillet welds. Could also be lower grade E60XX weld metal, but some say E70XX weld metal should be used for new connections as good practice. Couldn't resist since we were getting a little deep ...

Might even get away with 1/8" fillet welds if the plate is less than or equal to 1/4", of course I would need to see the drawing . I would personaly stay away from the low hydrogen rod myself as often it is not treated properly after the can is opened.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Robert;

Realizing that we are way beyond the scope of an HI, I still would like to comment that I need to step down one level on my deductions and say that if a Residential Contractor were to install some miscellaneous beams for support of the structure, that an Engineer would be expected to be involved, and basically what I am saying is that the cap plate of the column should have been oriented the other way, or long length parallel with the beam and should have been at the bare minimum of 1/4" thick.
Now stepping down to the Residential design, I would almost bet some money that the plate would have be bolted with a two slash marking on the bolt head of about 5/8" diameter, which was bought at Home Depot. If it would have been welded, they would have used a 5/32 E6011, and not a E7018. The weld would have been four inches long on each parallel side because they did not know any better.

The problem to comment on a picture, is that you do not see the whole picture, and is very hard to comment accurately. Their is more to the picture than the piece of the pie actuarially shows.

No offense taken.
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[jschulte]

It's interesting hearing all of this talk about codes living in rural Missouri. Our county has no building codes (the city I live in does, but it is just a small part of the county). You do not need plans to build a home out of town, all you need is the money and a dream.

[Brian E. Kelly]

You are fully entitled to that belief Jeff, but every manufactured componet of that "Dream House" probably comes with manufactures installation instructions or reccomended guidelines. Those instructions or guidelines in that case would be the code or engineering guidelines. This would include but is not limited too, the concrete in the foundation, the engineered lumber, any and all fasteners, HVAC sytem, roofing, plumbing, etc. I believe even reccomended nailing paterns were originaly engineered by someone.

Perhaps MO will evolve to using a minimum code of some sort.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

[quote=jschulte] You do not need plans to build a home out of town, all you need is the money and a dream.[/quote]

Jeff; I understand your beliefs to what the circumstances are, but unfortunately, this type of arena in the Building Industry, opens the Home Owner right up to what is right and what is wrong. You can not see what is wrong until you have seen what is right. Closest thing to that type of differential is knowing what the local codes are in areas that are enforcing them and are using this type of control on the standard of building and gives the Homeowner something to compare with in a scenario as this. An uncontrolled zoning area only promotes the ones that are trying to take advantage of an unmonitored building method and cut corners if the Contractor is not Ethical about his performance. That could be at the demise of the Owner if no comparison is available for one to see that a House is being built to Standards.

I realize that Brian is trying to pronounce the same type of precaution. It does give us HI's some work, but does this make it right for the Industry??
There is a pattern and a method of installation on almost everything you can think of Today, and that basically is what need used as some sort of guideline.


Marcel




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[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by mcyr

[quote=jschulte] You do not need plans to build a home out of town, all you need is the money and a dream.

Jeff; I understand your beliefs to what the circumstances are, but unfortunately, this type of arena in the Building Industry, opens the Home Owner right up to what is right and what is wrong. You can not see what is wrong until you have seen what is right. Closest thing to that type of differential is knowing what the local codes are in areas that are enforcing them and are using this type of control on the standard of building and gives the Homeowner something to compare with in a scenario as this. An uncontrolled zoning area only promotes the ones that are trying to take advantage of an unmonitored building method and cut corners if the Contractor is not Ethical about his performance. That could be at the demise of the Owner if no comparison is available for one to see that a House is being built to Standards.

I realize that Brian is trying to pronounce the same type of precaution. It does give us HI's some work, but does this make it right for the Industry??
There is a pattern and a method of installation on almost everything you can think of Today, and that basically is what need used as some sort of guideline.


Marcel




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Nicely said Marcel.

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

Might even get away with 1/8" fillet welds if the plate is less than or equal to 1/4" ...

The minimum size fillet weld is a function of the metal thickness along the edge of the weld, which would be the beam flange thickness in this case. Most steel beams for residential construction have flanges between 1/4" and 1/2", in which case 3/16" would be the minimum required weld size by industry codes. That seems to be consistent with a digital photometric dimensional analysis (i.e. I took a look at the photo and guessed ... lol). Also, most engineers consider 3/16" fillet welds and 1/4" plates the minimum for structural connections regardless of what local/model codes allow as a minimum.

Keep in mind that discussions like these go well beyond a home inspection for general information only. So ya don't need to run out and buy a weld size gage to measure weld sizes to check if they meet code minimums ... ... And talking about codes, even if an area does not have a state/local building code adopted, model codes (like the IRC) provide an excellent resource/guide for home inspectors on acceptable minimum industry standards for construction when deciding what to do with a possible installation defect.

JMO & 2-nickels ...

[Brian E. Kelly]

Sounds good Robert

[rwand1]

Bolting is acceptable if welding is not possible.

[Brian E. Kelly]

http://www.destefanoassociates.com/t...ly_columns.pdf

[Robert J. OConnor]

P.S. Just an FYI on minimum weld sizes (as if we haven't gone way beyond a home inspection already ... lol).

Most building codes currently reference the AISC 1989-ASD/1999-LRFD "Specifications for Steel Construction" which base the minimum weld on the "thicker" metal in the joint ... which would be the beam flange in this case. But that is changing to specifying the minimum based on the "thinner" metal in the joint (e.g. latest AISC/AWS specification yet to be adopted), where an 1/8" fillet weld would be the absolute minimum for a 1/4" or less cap plate.

Some engineers disagree with that, and many say they would still use 3/16" fillet welds and 1/4" plates as a good rule of thumb minimum for structural connections. But very astute observations by Brian ...

[Bill@MyMagicCity.net]

The middle two 2x's or load bearing beams/ the outer two 2x's appear to be "bond timbers" . they only support the perpendicular floor joists. That being said, the orientation of the plate does not matter nor does any weld to the plate. the plate and column and plate are transfering the load from the inner 2 beams.

[rwand1]

I think the evidence thus far indicates otherwise.