Twisting ceiling joists

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

I said the entire roof structure should be evaluated because I couldn't see the vast majority of it because it was hidden by blown insulation.

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Originally Posted by gkay

With a stick framed roof like that my concern would be with rafter spread. Were collar ties in place, ridge beam support by load bearing members to foundation?

The ceiling joist are preventing rafter spread, collar ties are for uplift.
Obviously the rafters should have been fastened next to the CJ's but there are times when that is not going to happen (spacing on center, bastard / irregular pitches, etc.). In those takes the CJ, is tied together by a rimboard / bandboard and often a top plate on same with your rafter layout as needed.

I seriously doubt that any framing member is properly nailed as required.

[Gordon I. Kay]

Originally Posted by jhaynes

The ceiling joist are preventing rafter spread, collar ties are for uplift.
Obviously the rafters should have been fastened next to the CJ's but there are times when that is not going to happen (spacing on center, bastard / irregular pitches, etc.). In those takes the CJ, is tied together by a rimboard / bandboard and often a top plate on same with your rafter layout as needed.

I seriously doubt that any framing member is properly nailed as required.

I'm not much of a framer myself Jeff, but I can visualize what you are saying about the rimboard. That would definitely tie it all together. The CJ's and rafters appear to have the same centers and the pitch appears normal. Can you think of any circumstances that the Cj's and rafters were not tied together?

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Gordon,

I broke in the construction business back in 1980 exclusively framing........every (good) framer I know and worked with tied them together except when the spacing was changed.....and as I said earlier we would (still do) rim board them, except in cases where we cantilever the joist, but even then we tie them together with 1x4 or 2x4 (we call them rat runs....lol). Seldom do you block between them simply because its not necessary when utilizing the method I stated above. (work quicker and smarter)

I simply think that it was a case where a person decided to do the work themselves or hire some jack-leg crew that was flying by the seat of their pants.

I am pretty anal about framing......I insist that studs, cj's and rafter all line up. It not only is structurally better but it makes it easier for my other trades to do clean and neat work thereafter. When I started in construction a carpenter could do virtually every phase of construction (except hvac, electrical and plumbing) and do it very well, unfortunately today because of track building and much of the work is done by immigrants, it is next to impossible to find such a craftsman.......everything is subbed out......I know a guy who makes a living by simply caulking trim for Ryan Homes (their miter joints are pretty pathetic).

I pretty much equate crappy work to shortcuts (or lack of knowledge) which means their is probably more wrong than meets the eye.

Jeff

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Joe,

That roof was pretty steep, by chance was it a mansard roof?

Oh by the way...... I found the framing crew who did that roof....you can see their work here. (cover page)lol

Talk about crappy work.....

[Gordon I. Kay]

I used to install HVAC in residential and thats the kind of work I am used to seeing when most everthing lines up.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

Originally Posted by jhaynes

Joe,

That roof was pretty steep, by chance was it a mansard roof?

Here's the house from the outside.

[Gregory A. Liebig]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

Here's the house from the outside.

Attachment 27907

Holy Cow... I must have missed the age of the home. I was thinking all along that this was an addition not new construction. A hip roof with this type of construction would have a problem carrying the snow loads around here.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

Originally Posted by gliebig

Holy Cow... I must have missed the age of the home. I was thinking all along that this was an addition not new construction. A hip roof with this type of construction would have a problem carrying the snow loads around here.

One day of snow here, maybe 6 inches at the most, is the norm. It hangs around about a day then it's 70 degrees later the same week.

[Gregory A. Liebig]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

One day of snow here, maybe 6 inches at the most, is the norm. It hangs around about a day then it's 70 degrees later the same week.

You just had to rub it in. It's really nice here now. The sun's out and it's a wonderful 55 degrees!

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Hip roofs are actually one of the strongest roof system next to geometric roofs which you rarely see in residential construction. I also see no guardrails or handrails on the front.

Anyway, the ceiling joist simply need to be tied together....again a simple fix.
Hip roofs are fun to build, especially baster hips (which is what I think you have there),......my personal home is a Neo-Victorian with 3 turrets with your typical bastard hips. Such roofs separate the wannabe carpenters from the real ones. (laugh)

Oh yeah Joe, don't forget to tell how just the mention of snow make people run to the store for milk, bread and batteries. Coming from Ohio, it drives me crazy.

regards

Jeff

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Originally Posted by jfunderburk

These ceiling joists were twisting badly.

What would be the proper repair? Metal connectors to the top plate? Blocking?

Attachment 27862 Attachment 27863

Joe, rafters should almost always oppose and the ceiling joists should act as rafter ties, tying the bases of opposing rafters together. That home was framed by someone who didn't know what they were doing. It's a serious framing mistake and you should recommend evaluation by a structural engineer.

Bad roof.

[David E. Helm]

I agree with Kenton. Not only should the ceiling joists be tied to the rafters, but there should also be blocking between each set. That is how to keep joists from twisting. Don't know about anywhere else, but the blocking is required here.

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

First its not a serious framing mistake.....its not good practice (because of the twisting) I agree to but to say its a serious framing mistake is exaggerating. I can show you roofs designed by architects and engineers where there are no ceiling joist or collar ties.

In many cases with modern home designs, you have ceiling joist running parallel with the rafters.......is that to say its a design flaw..........of course not.

One has to be careful of reporting items are deficient when they clearly are not.

How many of you would write this up.......or how about this one.......and this.

You need to understand that not every roof system is going to have ceiling joist and collar ties......they don't have to. Neither does there have to be blocking.....as I said before, simply take a 1x4 and ties ceiling joist together will be just as quick and effective.....plus cheaper.

regards

Jeff

[Brian E. Kelly]

Balusters are too far apart