Unusual roof framing

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Ran into this today in new construction. The front and rear hip sections of this new construction home have 2by4s run on the flat every 2' on top of the truss system. The 2bys are nailed into the trusses (no clips) with 2 nails only at points of intersection. This really doesn't appear to me to provide the uplift resistance required for windstorm protection. I'd like to know what you other inspectors in Fl. think. My intent is to tell the client to review the plans to be certain this detail was constructed to plan.

[dwilliams9]

There is nothing unusual about this type of framing, at least in Utah. The truss manufacturer will send out a "hip fill" with the trusses which is what you see there. In most cases it is a triangle framed out of 2x4 laid flat. The hip trusses are manufactured so that you just lay the "Hip fill" right down on top. Starting from the girder you nail it to the other trusses right on up to the peak being careful to keep the trusses on layout so you don't create any humps or dips in the roof. If the manufacturer doesn't send out the "hip fill" they are very ease to produce on site. Looks like there has been some kind of a fix done on the first truss in the picture. I've never had to make any special kind of connection to the trusses. two nails is standard.

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by dwilliams9

There is nothing unusual about this type of framing, at least in Utah. The truss manufacturer will send out a "hip fill" with the trusses which is what you see there. In most cases it is a triangle framed out of 2x4 laid flat. The hip trusses are manufactured so that you just lay the "Hip fill" right down on top. Starting from the girder you nail it to the other trusses right on up to the peak being careful to keep the trusses on layout so you don't create any humps or dips in the roof. If the manufacturer doesn't send out the "hip fill" they are very ease to produce on site. Looks like there has been some kind of a fix done on the first truss in the picture. I've never had to make any special kind of connection to the trusses. two nails is standard.

Understood, you don't live in hurricane land though. Down here we worry about things going up. We have specific square ftage uplift forces which should be met my concern is that the 30 nails per 4x8 sheet of OSB doesn't cut it. It is a moot point if the design was implemented according to plan. I just wanted to know how many other inspectors in Fl. may have seen this before, it is unusual in my area.

[Greg Bell]

It looks like some yankee came down here and built a house over the winter.

It would be interesting to see what rating the engineer gave it. I think there should at least be a wrap over the 2x4 attached to the top cord on each side. I would also feel a little better about it if they were 12 inches instead of 24.

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by gbell

It looks like some yankee came down here and built a house over the winter.

It would be interesting to see what rating the engineer gave it. I think there should at least be a wrap over the 2x4 attached to the top cord on each side. I would also feel a little better about it if they were 12 inches instead of 24.

The clips are what I would like to see too, similar to what we would expect if a tie in to another pitch was made. Since the OSB requires 45 nails to meet the 182psf uplift requirement and there are only 24 nails connecting the framing per sheet it seems like a weak link to me. If the design was on the plans as approved by the county I'm going to let it go. If not I'm asking for an engineers letter. By the way Greg thanks and it's Lennar in Viera.

[Richard A. Hetzel]

When there ARE 45 nails per sheet of OSB, does anyone ever check to see how many nails are in whatever is holding the OSB up there? Probably each sheet of OSB is supported by three rafters each having maybe 6 nails total, at most, connecting the rafters to the structure. Is that an "area of concern"?? If those 2x4s were supplied by the truss company, I would bet my bottom dollar plus my refrigerator that complete and competent engineering was done.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by Richard A. Hetzel

When there ARE 45 nails per sheet of OSB, does anyone ever check to see how many nails are in whatever is holding the OSB up there? Probably each sheet of OSB is supported by three rafters each having maybe 6 nails total, at most, connecting the rafters to the structure. Is that an "area of concern"?? If those 2x4s were supplied by the truss company, I would bet my bottom dollar plus my refrigerator that complete and competent engineering was done.

Agreed Richard, the 2x4's up here are usually not supplied by the manufacturer, but by the builder, the truss designer gives you the spacing.
Seen this type of design for trussess for years and nothing has changed yet to my knowledge.

I have searched throughout the Simpson catologue for high wind anchors for the 2x4's laid flat on top of the hip and jack rafters for high wind design and they do not exist.

So the picture that I am looking at is a mere basic roof hip truss asembly that is standard to the industry.
I would be more concerned about checking for Hurricane design requirements of Florida framing than wondering if a Yankee went down to frame the roof.

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by Richard A. Hetzel

When there ARE 45 nails per sheet of OSB, does anyone ever check to see how many nails are in whatever is holding the OSB up there? Probably each sheet of OSB is supported by three rafters each having maybe 6 nails total, at most, connecting the rafters to the structure. Is that an "area of concern"?? If those 2x4s were supplied by the truss company, I would bet my bottom dollar plus my refrigerator that complete and competent engineering was done.

A lot of us are checking and on this particular install I can verify that visually because the 8d nails are longer enough to protrude. Usually it requires the use of a tool. No, we only occassionally see rafters and when we do they are often mechanically secured by more than toe nails and when that's all there is, it is noted and reccommended for upgrade. If? I don't put if's in my report do you? If this was engineer approved and built to plan it will not be an issue. If not I want an enginneers letter. Part of the reason I was looking for commentary from other inspectors here in Fl. is that we have a unique perspective regarding such issues. One that you obviously don't share.

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Agreed Richard, the 2x4's up here are usually not supplied by the manufacturer, but by the builder, the truss designer gives you the spacing.
Seen this type of design for trussess for years and nothing has changed yet to my knowledge.

I have searched throughout the Simpson catologue for high wind anchors for the 2x4's laid flat on top of the hip and jack rafters for high wind design and they do not exist.

So the picture that I am looking at is a mere basic roof hip truss asembly that is standard to the industry.
I would be more concerned about checking for Hurricane design requirements of Florida framing than wondering if a Yankee went down to frame the roof.

I am looking for plan details(on this house) certified by an engineer of record to eliminate me as a future source of blame for this design. It is understood that this is a normal construction practice. But my concern is valid that the framing done in this manner may not meet the requirements for mean uplift resistance required. So I will be asking the builder to supply the plans to ascertain that this is the method the county approved under review for the construction. Maybe I should just take you guys word for it being OK....Nah, I'm asking to see the plans. Actually it hasn't been COed yet and the plans should be there,but they aren't.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by bhoagland

I am looking for plan details(on this house) certified by an engineer of record to eliminate me as a future source of blame for this design. It is understood that this is a normal construction practice. But my concern is valid that the framing done in this manner may not meet the requirements for mean uplift resistance required. So I will be asking the builder to supply the plans to ascertain that this is the method the county approved under review for the construction. Maybe I should just take you guys word for it being OK....Nah, I'm asking to see the plans. Actually it hasn't been COed yet and the plans should be there,but they aren't.

Well done.

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Originally Posted by gbell

It looks like some yankee came down here and built a house over the winter.

Which is why it will probably stand for 100 years.......beat the heck out of the good ole boys who tell you...."we been buildin in dat way for yers.......my daddy did, my pappy did it....and his pappy did it that way......."

I have built homes both in the north and south........I will take yankee framers all day long......(especially those from the northeast) and not loose a bit of sleep.

As others have pointed out......typical truss fill in.

regards

[Greg Bell]

Originally Posted by jhaynes

Which is why it will probably stand for 100 years.......beat the heck out of the good ole boys who tell you...."we been buildin in dat way for yers.......my daddy did, my pappy did it....and his pappy did it that way......."

I have built homes both in the north and south........I will take yankee framers all day long......(especially those from the northeast) and not loose a bit of sleep.

As others have pointed out......typical truss fill in.

regards

That is probably why you are not building in the South anymore. Typical Yankee!

[Brian C. Hoagland]

I'll actually be doing the inspection on this today. Yesterday when I took the photo I canceled the job because painters were there doing touch up and some electrical was still going in. I'll let you guys know what happens with regard to this tonight. Stay tuned, grab your rifles for more riveting north/south civil war action.

[Jeffery L. Haynes]

Originally Posted by gbell

That is probably why you are not building in the South anymore. Typical Yankee!

You guys (yankee term....lol) just never got over loosing the Civil War.....y'all (southern term..lol) need to let it go.....its been over 140 years.

By the way...... I just got back from Gettysburg Pa (rode through Va. WV, PA, NY and Vt on my motorcycle...was awesome)......very sobering to think that 46,000 were kill in just 3 days..........so sad.


And actually I am still building in the south...... just not as much.

Anyway, in regards to framing......I can guarantee you that I can go through any home regardless of who built it and find framing issues.............to me its a matter of if item in question adversely affects the home..........rarely does that happen yet some HI's will write any and everything to cover there butt without regard to really looking at it from a common sense stand point...... in essence you have nothing but a bunch of alarmist who are afraid to make a call in and of themselves.
(not saying this is the case in this post)

regard

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Turns out this was in the plans and OK'd by the local building dept. I explained my concern about it to the buyer and that they (engineer and building dept.) had jurisdiction and I had no dog in the fight. The entire neighborhood is constructed this way. I would have liked to see some clips on it but what I like or want is a moot point as the powers to be have decided it to be good enough already. There are times to brandish the sword, times to sheath it and times to fall upon it. I'm sheathing it on this one. That way I'll Live to take it up again on a different battle.