Would you use a floor system tester?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by rray

Also called a manometer by engineers.

Are you sure?

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Are you sure?

I'm familiar with the definition, and I have argued with engineers in Texas (Kingsville, Houston, Victoria, Corpus Christi, Bryan, College Station, Austin, San Antonio, Tyler, and El Paso), as well as with engineers here, and when it comes to using a "water level" in real estate, they for some reason call them manometers. I have quit arguing with them and simply call it a manometer like they do. DeBerry Engineering here uses manometers, which, for some strange reason, look and work just like my "water level."

It took me a while to figure out what they were talking about, so I finally called an engineering friend in Austin who I knew from Texas A&M. He gave me almost the exact photo you gave me. So I called DeBerry and had them do a home inspection on a property I was renovating. Specifically stated that I was concerned about the foundation and the floors and understood that they did manometer surveys on real estate. They do, and they did, and they used a "water level." So I went out and bought one so that now I can also do manometer surveys when Clients request them. And I emailed Steve (http://www.garrett-ihnen.com/) informing him what it was. He eventually confirmed that in some areas of real estate, a "water level" is called a "manometer." I think we are in that "some area."

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by rray

I'm familiar with the definition, and I have argued with engineers in Texas (Kingsville, Houston, Victoria, Corpus Christi, Bryan, College Station, Austin, San Antonio, Tyler, and El Paso), as well as with engineers here, and when it comes to using a "water level" in real estate, they for some reason call them manometers. I have quit arguing with them and simply call it a manometer like they do. DeBerry Engineering here uses manometers, which, for some strange reason, look and work just like my "water level."

Please don't get testy with me Russel. You used a term (manometer) that many here would not recognize as a tool for home inspections.
The term water level is widely recognized here and well understood.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Please don't get testy with me Russel.

Well, I'm not sure how my explanation got to be "testy," but in the interest of good relations, I'll provide you with a politician's apology: "I'm sorry you misunderstood my post."

Originally Posted by mlarson

You used a term (manometer) that many here would not recognize as a tool for home inspections. The term water level is widely recognized here and well understood.

And that's exactly why I provided further explanation in my post. Once again, I'm sorry if you thought the post was testy. You haven't seen testy. My employees, however, have.

[Russel Ray]

Note also that I have not worked in Wisconsin. So now you know that manometer is another term for water level in some areas of the country.

[Michael Larson]

Russel is ever the Artful Dodger.

[dthomas2]

Originally Posted by rray

I'm still not clear on the concept, so I have not yet voted.

I have all sorts of contraptions for my PREMIUM and TECH inspections, so I'd be interested if I can get clear on the concept and know exactly what it does and how it works.

Okay Russell, let me try to clarify - please question anything coming that isn't clear. (Same for all of the rest of you.)

Existing technology allows discovery of strength causing properties within wood products prior to bringing to market. Some Structural Lumber and engineered wood products are subjected to test's and marked accordingly for consideration as they are used in structures. (Be aware that already I have cut corners in this conversation for simplicities sake - this is not a discussion for the application of engining principles.) You engineers will understand that in laymens terms, this conversation serves its purpose.
So, when a structure is built to framing and/or structural codes the code anticipates the coefficient of variations of the various products i.e., 2x4, 2x6, ,,, 6x6 and the like. Most structures use more wood than needed due to these variations in growth or fiber specific properties. In the 1970's producers of raw materials began to sort products to tighter specifications and were able to do this because of technology emerging out of Pullman Washington: Machine Stress Rating. This technology leads us to a similar technology used in non-manufacturing environments that will be employed in our proposed tester. The company that will manufacture the tester has in the past considered modifying their product to test areas of floor systems but could not see a big enough market for it - that is until I introduced them to NACHI. I will be the principle marketer in North America when the product is ready.

Determining if an area of a wood structure is weak:
We do know without debate that impulses of energy can be injected into a cellulose fiber (wood) product and a reflected impulse captured by our tester and evaluated. Turns out that a board with strong fibers will pass the reflected impulse at a predictably different velocity than fibers that are weak. If talking about an area of a single board, a drop in velocity of about thirty percent would indicate substantial inferior performance when under load. This is well understood and great for checking a questionable sill plate. The unknown here is what exactly will the velocities mean when a subfloor and carpet is put on top of the board as it is in a floor system. This is a new frontier - no one has yet done this evaluation. The reason I feel it can be done is that within a floor system the individual components, generally speaking, will be similar in similar application areas. For example, if I take a velocity reading two feet from a wall, every sixteen inches for the length of the wall, I would expect to see readings within two or three percent of each other. So, if at an exterior window and the reading drops below, say 20% of previous readings, you will without question have degradation of the floor system. Suppose your moisture meter tells you that one side of the floor, under the linoleum is damp - but it is covered and you cannot speak to the amount of damage. This tester will flag this area as either good or bad (bad if rot has weakened the wood fiber.) You could likely draw the floor structure from tester readings when the direction of the trusses are needed. This left to someone other than the H.I.
The manufactures of the tester will ensure it is easy to use - you wont need to get your calculator out to interpret results. Actual velocity readings may not be necessary - simply take a reading or two to establish a standard, and then test your suspect soft area. A red/green convention could be used - red = good, green = bad.

I may get word from the manufacturer that they have found that the test I hope for is not possible - nothing ventured nothing gained. HOWEVER, your business could include testing dock or retaining wall integrity, or exterior decks, even if it doesn't work well for floors. We'll see.

Let me know if I haven't given you what you need but I cannot define at this time how you would take the readings - the manufacturer will tell us at some point. We do know that it MUST BE EASY TO USE.

[Russel Ray]

It would probably have to be similar to my Tramex moisture meter in that it would have to have different settings for different floor coverings (i.e., Pergo on wood, Pergo on linoleum on wood, tile on wonderboard on cement on linoleum on wood, etc.) My Tramex moisture meter was, like, $349, plus or minus. This floor system tester would probably have to have a similar price.

[Harold E. Miller]

Originally Posted by dthomas2

I have contacted a company that is willing to modify their existing tester for use in the home inspection industry. I now wonder if I might be the only one of us who would find it useful.

Dennis
How many floors do you find regularly that you feel such a device would help you evaluate?
I don't remember any I have inspected that this type of device would have helped on. I think this is because when a floor system has been compromised from fungal rot, or from having over spanned joists, etc. the evidence was sufficient enough. Usually the floor feels like a trampoline, exhibits moisture damage, and/ or a wide variety of other visual clues. When the structural integrity of the floor is bad, it is not that difficult to observe. Even better when you can view it from the crawl space or basement.
Besides serious structural integrity defects of floor systems is not that common, in my experience, with the exception of damage from fungal wood rot. And that is why I asked my intial question, and wonder what the point is of a device that would be rarely needed.
Understand that I find devices "like" moisture meters to be a great way to impress clients and realtors by dazzling them with high tech gadgets. But offer little help in really finding the problems. If I have seen evidence that has inspired me to pull out my moisture meter, I already know the answer. The meter is just an easy way to convince other people, but it isn't really a necessity.
Maybe I have a different take on this as a result of my background as GC, and can not even remember how many damaged floors I have repaired. But this experience goes along way in helping me relate the problems I am seeing to my clients, and as such I don't need readings from a meter to give credibility to what I am saying.
People really like my infrared thermometer tester for checking the heat output at the registers....but really.... I can put my hand in front of the register and feel if it is warm air, or not. Not really necessary, but it is practical in a sense.
Just my two cents....

[dthomas2]

I'm thinking that different settings may be helpful, however my guess is that it would not be used atop of a ceramic, stone, or a floor where concrete is used above a subfloor (some two/three story apartments will put a layer of concrete above the flooring, then carpet.) It will be interesting to see what the final product will look like and cost.