Educational Course

[William J. Decker]

Joe;

Interesting, but not really relevent to most home inspectors. You could not know this but, the Chicago Housing Development Authority is the local city / federal body that was responsible for such death traps and gang-generating mostrosities as Cabrini Green and other 'projects'. They were (and still are, in some cases) that even the police will not venture inside them.

I certainly won't and neither will most home inspectors I know.

You want to inspect it for electrical problems, be my guest!

Hope this helps.

[William J. Decker]

Illinois Announcment:

The Chicago Chapter of NACHI

National Association of Certified Home Inspectors

Presents

Electrical Home Inspection Checklists

A seminar designed to provide information and guidelines to help home inspectors discharge their duties in a systematic manner

Approved by the State of Illinois for Six (6) Continuing Education Credit Hours

Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2006
Place: Holiday Inn, Hillside
4400 Frontage Road
Hillside, IL 60162
Time: 9:00 a.m. – 5:00 p.m.

Details: Registration begins at 8:00 a.m.
Lunch will be served

Price: $25.00 for NACHI Members
$90.00 for non NACHI attendees

This course is available to all Illinois Licensed Home Inspectors. Non NACHI attendees may apply $50.00 of their registration fee towards NACHI membership ($289.00/yr.). Visit www.nachi.org for membership details.

Attendance is limited and will be accepted on a first come, first served basis. Register by visiting our Chapter Website at www.nachichicago.org . All attendees will receive an email confirmation of their accepted registration.

Don’t miss this opportunity to sharpen your skills as a home inspector through a first class continuing education course and receive Illinois State Credit Hours!

[Russell Spriggs]

Received the CD, Will - thanks!

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Joe;

Interesting, but not really relevent to most home inspectors. You could not know this but, the Chicago Housing Development Authority is the local city / federal body that was responsible for such death traps and gang-generating mostrosities as Cabrini Green and other 'projects'. They were (and still are, in some cases) that even the police will not venture inside them.

I certainly won't and neither will most home inspectors I know.

You want to inspect it for electrical problems, be my guest!

Hope this helps.

Will:

Interesting.

Back to the question. I believe that the following overrides the HI SOP.

5.04 Electrical:

5.04.01:
The National Electrical Code, the local electrical code, and these guidelines shall govern all electrical work performed on new construction and renovations of existing buildings. Whenever there is a conflict in the requirements between the regulations, the more stringent requirement will prevail.

[William J. Decker]

Joe;

I believe that you miss the point. Each state (and local AHJ) has its own requirements. I believe, that as a matter of law, local AHJ requirements will almost always override any private national organization or association. And, in most cases, state law overrides local government laws.

Therefore, under the state law underwhich I am licensed and under the NACHI SOP (which defers to state law, as it must) I must defect things that, under grandfather provisions of local code are OK if they do not meet currently held construction standards with regards to safety.

Therefore, a huse built in 1990 but not having AFCI protection, I must defect as 'significantly deficient. I have posted the law many times here. Hve you read it?

[Joe Farsetta]

Will,

I am confused. And this goes to the notion that HIs are NOT Code Enforcers (the AHJ).

So, you are telling me that, a home built in 1958, with no GFCIs, has a significant defect due to the fact that there are no GFCIs installed, because the home wasnt brought up to current code requirements (as of todays requirements), and the GFCI hadnt been invented when the dwelling was constructed?

I flag it as a recommendation, but not as a defect. Arent there rules for what percentage of a home must be renovated prior to requiring it to be brought up to current code requirements (applicable at the time of renovation)?

[William J. Decker]

Joe F.;

Let me be clear here. It is a somwhat nuanced situation and only applies to the State of Illinois, as far as I know:

The state HI law actually defined a defect class, 'Significantly Deficient' in the law and Administratiev Rules of the law (which is part of the law, by law )

Here is the link to the state's web site and the administrative rule I will be quoting from : http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/...00C02000R.html

Sub-section a, 10 reads:
"Significantly Deficient: Unsafe or not functioning."

I guess we can all understand what not functioning means. A roof that leaks is not functioning. A furnace that will not light (for whatever reason, like the gas was shut off) is not functioning.

Unsafe is also defined:
" Unsafe: A condition in a system or component that is a significant risk of personal injury or property damage during normal, day-to-day use. The risk may be due to damage, deterioration, improper installation or a change in accepted residential construction standards."

So if something that deals with safety, as GFCIs and AFCIs do, does not meet current safety standards, it is significantly deficient and must be called out.

Comments?

[jtedesco1]

It is my understanding that the 2008 NEC will require all outlets in a dwelling to be protected by AFCI's!

As far as your comments, they are your opinions and may apply in some places in the areas you inspect, my reference to the Illinois Housing Rules is a Law and seems to make it clear that any remodel will be as per code, and that would make your inspection easier.

PS: Can I see the actual layout of the class you are presenting next month, how many topics and how much time will be given for each, and the test when and how will that be administered?

This should not be a problem, I only whnt to be sure that I understand what will be covered. Please..........

[William J. Decker]

"It is my understanding that the 2008 NEC will require all outlets in a dwelling to be protected by AFCI's!"

This is interesting news. Thanks for the heads up!


"As far as your comments, they are your opinions and may apply in some places in the areas you inspect, my reference to the Illinois Housing Rules is a Law and seems to make it clear that any remodel will be as per code, and that would make your inspection easier."

Joe, Joe, Joe. You still can't seem to see beyond your own little world into ours. It is not my opinion, it is the friggin' state law! You can check it, again, for yourself. I dare you to. Here is the link (for the 4th time) directly to the state's web site:

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/...00C02000R.html

Check out items a) 10 and 15. Couldn't be clearer.

BTW: The state's administrator in the Division of Professional Regulation and my lawyer agree that this is the intent of the law. I have to live and work here and my license states that I have to obey their administrative rules and the state law, so I guess that means that your 'opinion' isn't irrelevent, doesn't it.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I don't know how many times I have told and posted and written you. This is the law!

So, it is not my 'opinon', it is state law. Check it out for yourself. Last I heard, state law overides local ordinances (we call them ordinances in Illinois, not regulations). State law, within Illinois overides even (Beleive it or Not!) the NEC.

Nice try, though.


"PS: Can I see the actual layout of the class you are presenting next month, how many topics and how much time will be given for each, and the test when and how will that be administered?

This should not be a problem, I only whnt to be sure that I understand what will be covered. Please.........."

Joe;

It is a problem. You have been told this many times, both publicaly and privately. You seem incapable of understanding this.

1) I wrote the currently approved state electirical course for NACHI and have submitted it to NACHI and they have all rights to it as faw as Illinois State Approved CE. They own it, Joe. I gave it to them. They didn't steal it. I, freely, gave it to them. It is not the course that includes your booklet. Your 'course' is not currently approved by the state. If you want to submit it, under your own state continuing education providers license or someone elses, be my guest. Hope that they allow you to teach it, but I recommend that you actually read the state law before you do.

2) I am a home inspector. That is what I do and how I earn my living. If and when it is taught, and if NACHI decides that I should teach it, I will recieve NO money for teaching it. If they choose to reimburse me for mileage, fuel or motel room and board, I will be greatful for their generosity.

3) But I am not a professional educator (although I have taught college level courses at two major Chicago Universities). I do not make my living teaching classes. I have not entered into any royalty agreements or handshake deals with Nick. As far as Illinois State approved CE credit, NACHI owns the course. Clear?

4) If it seems like I have an insect up my colon about this, that is true. I, two nights ago, attended a State approved CE course given by a member of another association. It was for 3 state CE hours (state requirements are three 50 minute periods, minimum. From the instructor's first words to when he, personally, graded my exam and the official state completion certificate was put in my hands, only 1 hour and 21 minutes had passed! What a friggin' joke! The course was very sad.

That is what happens when professional, state required CE becomes that cash cow for theives, and I say this with all due respect to your education and experience, vendors of state required CE.

You are not an home inspector. You are a genius in what you do, but you are no home inspector.

Let me make myself clear:

1. I cannot send you anything with regards to the course. It is not mine to send to you and I have been told by people who have authority over me, specifically, not to send it to you. You cannot understand this because of your worldview so I will make it perfectly clear. I will not send you a copy of the course because, if you prefer, I am a jerk. Do you understand that? Does that make you happy and justify you low opinion of me? If the only way you will stop hounding me for a copy of the course is for you to believe that I am a complete jerk, I can live with that. I hope, though, that you can understand what I have, many times, told you.
2. I will and am doing everything I can to make quality state CE courses available to NACHI, nationwide, and for an inexpensive price. I will not accept the premise that NACHI, or its members, should pay vendors, like you, $1,000 per diem to teach us stuff. Yet such vendors are not home inspectors, don't know what home inspection is all about (as you have proved many times) and would rather teach than actually work. This is the real problem. The vendors want to teach us what we alredy know, but in words and ways we cannot understand. They also want to get paid, real well, for the privledge!
3. You do not 'only want to know what is covered'. I have, many times, personally on this site, through phone calls and e-mails, tried to explain to you what the course was about and how you should change your 'style' to make it relevent to home inspectors. You plain just don't listen. I am beginning to believe that you are incapable of learning this, but I hope I am wrong.
4. You want to teach this course in Illinois for state CE. That is NACHi's decision, but I have been told that it ain't going to happen. You want to get your 'grand a day' gig back. I understand, really, I do. But it is not going to happen.
5. You believe that I 'stole' your course. That is not true and I will prove it to you whenever you like (like in Florida?). Your 'book' was the only thing that you contributed to NACHI or the NACHI Chicago Chapter. Ken Demski and I wrote the PowerPoint presentation, the outline and the test and answer key. We, together with Russ Myers, put in over 90 hours doing work to submit it to the state for approval. And you expect that you have the only right to teach it? What gaul! You stated, to me and Russ, that you 'couldn't be bothered' to even make up a test! Then, after you 'taught' it to Illinois inspectors (before it was fully approved), you again 'couldn't be bothered' to even give and proctor a test. Russ spent endless hours trying to clean up your mess with the course attendees and with the state. Do you know the liability you put NACHI into? A real teacher knows that education is a complete process, not just showing up, being the star and getting paid. I wrote, along with the invaluable help of Ken Demski and Tom Noble (Master Electrician, Former Chicago Electrical Inspector, Instructor at the Union school and my friend since 1st grade) the other electrical course. It is not 'your' course. It is totally different and written for home insectors. Yours was not. It bears no resembelence to you 'booklet'. It is an original work.

Hope this answers your questions.
--

[jtedesco1]

The Chicago Chapter of NACHI

National Association of Certified Home Inspectors

Presents

Electrical Home Inspection Checklists

A seminar designed to provide information and guidelines to help home inspectors discharge their duties in a systematic manner

Please list and describe the seminar objectives.

[jtedesco1]

http://www.nachi.org/forum/report.php?p=11493

Shame on you! I never taught a class in Illinois and it was in Missouri and just one person was expecting the CEU's.
work.

[Kenneth E. Sitzes]

Will Joe all you did was talk about codes. We home inspector our not code enforces. Yes I wanted credit an no I was not the only one who want the credit. The other one did not want to go though the hassle to make up the test that you where to give. The way you an other present the course was wrong. You where just there to blow wind. I can not call out codes an that is all you talk about. Sorry you think that want Russ & Will is doing is wrong but at less they have gone Thur the trouble to due it the right way. I'm sure that it is more for want home inspector or to look for instead of codes. Just my opinion.

[William J. Decker]

Joe;

1. I merely posted the announcement, on Russ's behalf. If you desire further clarification of the course's content, I suggest you contact Russ.
2. You did present the class to Illinois inspectors, 3 I believe. Presenting a state approved class is much more than getting up and 'teaching' it. It also means that you:
   1. Know the state law. You do not.
   2. That you know your class. You are not a home inspector and do not know our needs nor our subject requirements. In fact, I believe that you have shown, publically, contempt to our profession. My opinion, only.
   3. Take responsiblity, as an agent for the State Licensed Continuing Education Provider, to make sure that the class is given in accordance with state law and meet all the requirements of the law. You can't do this because you do not know the law and refuse to learn it and have refused to proctor the test.

Joe, I would stop while you are ahead.

[David Nice]

OK So Russ says you are offering this to other chapters "free of charge" but you are charging for the one you are holding in Chicago? I would like to bring this to Milwaukee. would you email me with some details on what is needed to do this.

[William J. Decker]

David;

Contact Russ. He will send the materials out to Chapter Presidents.

We charge for the room and food. Only $25.00 for NACHI members. Non-members are $90.00 I believe.