QOD for 1/26/07 - AFCI's

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jbowman

2008 NEC Language. (Thank-you Joe Tedesco)

210.12(B)Dwelling Units.

All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways , or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

Oh yeah...He's the man........

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by jbowman

2008 NEC Language. (Thank-you Joe Tedesco)
210.12(B)Dwelling Units.
All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways , or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

I don't think anyone is on the 2008 NEC yet ... but good to keep in mind for the future ...

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Here in NY, I have yet to see smoke alarms on AFCIs. Come to think of it, I dont see AFCIS on any newly constructed home bedroom circuits, either.

In NY the Residential Code of New York State (RCNYS) controls the design/construction of homes, which is based on the 2000 IRC that did not have any AFCI requirements (AFCI for BR receptacles added with a 2000 IRC Supplement that NY did not adopt). However I have heard that some inspectors still like to see the circuits to BR receptacles on AFCI's as an interpretation. Probably will be required after the next code revisions ... unless NY makes an exception for dedicated smoke alarm circuits (some talk of that locally).

Also if you get bumped out of the RCNYS into the BCNYS which directly references the 1999 NEC (unusually large/tall or commercial multi-units) it's a different story as AFCI in BR's would then be required.

JMO & 2-nickels ...

[Joe Farsetta]

Rob,

Is it also true that, for an inspector or municipality in NY State to have a more restrictive interpretation, or requirement, than what the State has adopted, that the municipality needs to submit that interpretation to the DOS for approval first, or it is not enforcable?

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Is it also true that, for an inspector or municipality in NY State to have a more restrictive interpretation, or requirement, than what the State has adopted, that the municipality needs to submit that interpretation to the DOS for approval first, or it is not enforcable?

My understanding is that they need to submit whats called an MRLS to the NYSDOS from a local law the municipality passes. They can enforce the local law until the DOS reviews the proposed MRLS and either accepts or rejects it. It's usually pretty hard to get unless there are unusual local circumstances (the state wants everyone on the same page as much as possible ... and I think thats a good thing).

But I have heard that occasionally an inspector wants to see the AFCI's on BR receptacles since it's in the 1999 NEC (used in NY for commercial construction ... and optional for homes), even though it's not a requirement of the RCNYS ... which does not mandate using the NEC for homes if the simplified RCNYS provisions are followed.

And sometimes the code is not whats written in the book ... the code is what the inspector says in written in the book ...

[I still think the whole AFCI issue is a very sticky one for HI's]

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Nah..........if it's 2002NEC to 2005NEC and no AFCI's in the bedrooms....call it out as a safety concern and let the client deal with it.

No arguement on IF they work...WHY they work....should they work.....if the CODE is enforcing it.....just know they are an additional safety measure...call it out as such and move on.

Not a defect..........but could be a safety enhancement...even IF some do not believe AFCI's work.......the life you save MIGHT be your own.

[dmoore3]

Originally Posted by jbowman

Is the following statement True or False?

A proposal was accepted for the 2008 NEC requiring AFCI
protection on all 15- and 20-ampere residential circuits. It appears
that this proposal will survive the entire Code process and will be a
part of the 2008 NEC.

Hint: The answer ends with the letter "e".

I think the answer is self evident with the inclusion of the word "all".

I'm not so sure that 'all' 15 and 20 amp residential curcuits COULD be included as AFCI capable.

IMHO

[Paul W. Abernathy]

What it tells me is this....Kitchen Counters.....you will have to place either a GFCI receptacle at the counter top and an AFCI in the panel...or a AFCI/GFCI Breaker in the panel.....either way it does say ALL.....no exceptions I see written otherwise.

Seems to me us code proposal guys now need to inform them that in future additions when talking about GFCI requirements on a counter top...they should just say....GFCI/AFCI's are required...lol

Ok..Ok....I will leave the 2008 NEC® alone for now.....

[Justice W. Pitts]

TRU?E

[Steven C. Meyer]

Great (and inexpensive) way for manufactures to get their product out on the market!!!! Make it code, and the money rolls in!!! Much of the NEC is items pushed by the industry.
Maybe we should make home inspections mandatory!!!!

[Brian E. Kelly]

Where does it say kitchens and bathrooms need AFCI protection?


http://www.afcisafety.org/codes.html#NEC2008

[Paul W. Abernathy]

It doesn't....it almost said that but was revised at the last moment (kinda) to exclude those areas for the 2008 NEC. Read my previous posts a few back of the new virbiage.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Thanks Paul

[Ricky K. Kie]

Did they come up with a main disconnect yet that would be cheaper than replacing all the breakers? Lots of wiring. The Electricians are going to have to raise their prices again.
I do think its a good idea though, it could potentally save a lot of lives.

[jtedesco1]

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI).

A
device intended to provide protection from the effects of
arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing
and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc
fault is detected.

(B) Dwelling Units.

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

FPN No. 1: For information on types of arc-fault circuit
interrupters, see UL 1699-1999,

Standard for Arc-Fault
Circuit Interrupters.
FPN No. 2: See 11.6.3(5) of NFPA 72®-2007, National
Fire Alarm Code®, for information related to secondary
power supply requirements for smoke alarms installed in
dwelling units.
FPN No. 3: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for powersupply
requirements for fire alarm systems.

Exception No. 1: Where RMC, IMC, EMT or steel armored
cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of 250.118 using
metal outlet and junction boxes is installed for the portion
of the branch circuit between the branch-circuit overcurrent
device and the first outlet, it shall be permitted to
install a combination AFCI at the first outlet to provide
protection for the remaining portion of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 2: Where a branch circuit to a fire alarm
system installed in accordance with 760.41(B) and
760.121(B) is installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steel armored
cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of
250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes, AFCI protection

shall be permitted to be omitted.

[Jack R. Robnett]

The information below came from our local Square D Rep. off subject for this topic, but I thought it was interesting.

There is only one true way to field test an AFCI and that is by using the test button on the AFCI itself. The Ideal Sure Test units are UL listed as AFCI indicators (not testers). AFCI indicators may not recognize all AFCI breakers, and should not be relied on to determine functionality of an AFCI circuit breaker.
The UL approved method of testing an AFCI circuit breaker is to press the push-to-test button when installed in an energized load center or panel. This test injects a signal into the AFCIs sensor that looks like an arc to the AFCI. A properly functioning AFCI will trip when the test button is pushed.

Paragraph 31.8.1 of the UL 1436 standard requires the AFCI Indicator instructions to effectively state that the test button on the AFCI circuit breaker demonstrates proper operation.