Check Inside Electric Panel ? not allowed

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

There has been some discusion latly about home inspectors should not be climbing a roof with out proper harness equipment .
I wonder how many remove the Electric panel to check for concerns.
You need to think about this if you ever get to court .
Most including me are not allowed to open and thing electrical.
Could this include furnaces or HRV units.
This act can be read on the net it is 119 pages long
I wonder can we even go into a crawl space the way I read it you need to have two people and do all sorts of tests before entering.
Have not found what size the entrance must be yet.

http://www.csao.org/
http://www.csao.org/WebHelp/Downloads/construction.pdf

58

ELECTRICAL HAZARDS

Note: Effective April 1, 2006, Sections 181 to 195 were revoked and the following substituted:

181.

(1) Except where otherwise required by this Regulation, electrical work performed on or near electrical transmission or distribution systems shall be performed in accordance with the document entitled "Electrical Utility Safety Rules" published by the Electrical and Utilities Safety Association of Ontario Incorporated and dated August, 2004. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.
(2) Sections 182, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191 and 193 do not apply to electrical work that is performed on or near electrical transmission or distribution systems if the work is performed in accordance with the document referred to in subsection (1). O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.

182.

(1) No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations unless,
(a) the worker is an electrician certified under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act; or
(b) the worker is otherwise permitted to connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act, the Apprenticeship and Certification Act, 1998 or the Technical Standards and Safety Act, 2000. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.

(2) A worker who does not meet the requirements of clause (1) (a) or (b) may insert an attachment plug cap on the cord of electrical equipment or an electrical tool into, or remove it from, a convenience receptacle. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.
I guess that says we could use our GFCI tester but no amp meters.

Roy Cooke

[rwand1]

Are home inspectors workers? What is the definition of worker?

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by rwand1

Are home inspectors workers? What is the definition of worker?

I understand this applies to every one unless they are in the trade do not touch it.
The way it is written AC or Furnace mechanics are also out of luck.
Roy Cooke

[rwand1]

Is there a definition page at the link above which would provide the definition of a Worker? Being on dial up I don't want to take the time to download this large file.

Thanks

[Douglas Cossar]

Originally Posted by rcooke

There has been some discusion latly about home inspectors should not be climbing a roof with out proper harness equipment .
I wonder how many remove the Electric panel to check for concerns.
You need to think about this if you ever get to court .
Most including me are not allowed to open and thing electrical.
Could this include furnaces or HRV units.
This act can be read on the net it is 119 pages long
I wonder can we even go into a crawl space the way I read it you need to have two people and do all sorts of tests before entering.
Have not found what size the entrance must be yet.

http://www.csao.org/
http://www.csao.org/WebHelp/Downloads/construction.pdf

58
ELECTRICAL HAZARDS

Note: Effective April 1, 2006, Sections 181 to 195 were revoked and the following substituted:

181. (1) Except where otherwise required by this Regulation, electrical work performed on or near electrical transmission or distribution systems shall be performed in accordance with the document entitled "Electrical Utility Safety Rules" published by the Electrical and Utilities Safety Association of Ontario Incorporated and dated August, 2004. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.
(2) Sections 182, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191 and 193 do not apply to electrical work that is performed on or near electrical transmission or distribution systems if the work is performed in accordance with the document referred to in subsection (1). O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.


182. (1) No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations unless,
(a) the worker is an electrician certified under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act; or
(b) the worker is otherwise permitted to connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act, the Apprenticeship and Certification Act, 1998 or the Technical Standards and Safety Act, 2000. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.

(2) A worker who does not meet the requirements of clause (1) (a) or (b) may insert an attachment plug cap on the cord of electrical equipment or an electrical tool into, or remove it from, a convenience receptacle. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.
I guess that says we could use our GFCI tester but no amp meters.

Roy Cooke

Roy:

I methinks you are jumping to conclusions. The legislation states "CONNECT MAINTAIN or MODIFY"

We, as home inspectors, do not do any of those three specific things.
We observe and report conditions, only.

It would be my respectful submission that the legislation does not apply to home inspectors.

Cheers

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by dcossar

Roy:

I methinks you are jumping to conclusions. The legislation states "CONNECT MAINTAIN or MODIFY"

We, as home inspectors, do not do any of those three specific things.
We observe and report conditions, only.

It would be my respectful submission that the legislation does not apply to home inspectors.

Cheers

Sorry ,I would love to think you are correct but this was also reported by ESSA at two meetings they have had with Home inspectors.
I would think they feel taking of the cover is doing electrical work.

Roy Cooke

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

"No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations" quote


Where does it say you can not look at it and look inside the panel. Last Friday I found a 14 gage wire connected to a 100 amp breaker. If we can not open the panel these fire hazards will not be found.
With all the talk to regulate us maybe we should be working for regs that spell out what we have a right and obligation to inspect such as opening electrical panels.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by vmitchinson

"No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations" quote


Where does it say you can not look at it and look inside the panel. Last Friday I found a 14 gage wire connected to a 100 amp breaker. If we can not open the panel these fire hazards will not be found.
With all the talk to regulate us maybe we should be working for regs that spell out what we have a right and obligation to inspect such as opening electrical panels.

I agree we are on the same side on this all the way .
Taking of the cover is modifing the equipment .
But also being a retired electrician I see things being done by home inspectors that I will not even do.
Roy Cooke

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I agree we are on the same side on this all the way .
Taking of the cover is modifing the equipment .
How so?
But also being a retired electrician I see things being done by home inspectors that I will not even do.
Roy Cooke

I can only speak for my own procedures. I guess it comes back to the training of the inspector.
Wonder what Old Bill has to say about this and his ncp program. Does it insure that these situations are addressed.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I agree we are on the same side on this all the way .
Taking of the cover is modifing the equipment .
How?
But also being a retired electrician I see things being done by home inspectors that I will not even do.
Roy Cooke

It now is an open panel and no longer is it protected.
I am not saying not to do, it I do too, but be prepaired .

Roy Cooke

[Claude Lawrenson]

The biggest issue is the lack of proper training and ignoring required safety. Removing 4 screws from a cover does not meet the requirements of proper personal protection and also not touching or moving or physically testing anything within the electrical service panel.

A lot of this ALL started over a few home inspectors not heeding required safety. It falls in the same category as inspectors falling off roof, or falling through ceilings of attics. Care not taken, or care not practiced!

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by dcossar

Roy:

I methinks you are jumping to conclusions. The legislation states "CONNECT MAINTAIN or MODIFY"

We, as home inspectors, do not do any of those three specific things.
We observe and report conditions, only.

It would be my respectful submission that the legislation does not apply to home inspectors.

Cheers

I think 184 shows we can not do it ...... Roy
Precautions

183. Every reasonable precaution shall be taken to prevent hazards to workers from energized electrical equipment, installations and conductors. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 6.
Entry

184. (1) No person, other than a person authorized to do so by the supervisor in charge of the project, shall enter or be permitted to enter a room or other enclosure containing exposed energized electrical parts. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 7.
(2) The entrance to a room or other enclosure containing exposed energized electrical parts shall be marked by conspicuous warning signs stating that entry by unauthorized persons is prohibited. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 7.
Electrical Equipment


Roy Cooke

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by rwand1

Is there a definition page at the link above which would provide the definition of a Worker? Being on dial up I don't want to take the time to download this large file.

Thanks

I think 182a shows it pretty well Raymond .

182. (1) No worker shall connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations unless,
(a) the worker is an electrician certified under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act; or
(b) the worker is otherwise permitted to connect, maintain or modify electrical equipment or installations under the Trades Qualification and Apprenticeship Act, the Apprenticeship and Certification Act, 1998 or the Technical Standards and Safety Act, 2000. O. Reg. 627/05, s. 4.

Roy Cooke

[Claude Lawrenson]

Occupational Health and Safety Act
“competent person” means a person who,
(a) is qualified because of knowledge, training and experience to organize the work and its performance,
(b) is familiar with this Act and the regulations that apply to the work, and
(c) has knowledge of any potential or actual danger to health or safety in the workplace;
“construction” includes erection, alteration, repair, dismantling, demolition, structural maintenance, painting, land clearing, earth moving, grading, excavating, trenching, digging, boring, drilling, blasting, or concreting, the installation of any machinery or plant, and any work or undertaking in connection with a project but does not include any work or undertaking underground in a mine;
“employer” means a person who employs one or more workers or contracts for the services of one or more workers and includes a contractor or subcontractor who performs work or supplies services and a contractor or subcontractor who undertakes with an owner, constructor, contractor or subcontractor to perform work or supply services;
“homework” means the doing of any work in the manufacture, preparation, improvement, repair, alteration, assembly or completion of any article or thing or any part thereof by a person for wages in premises occupied primarily as living accommodation;
“worker” means a person who performs work or supplies services for monetary compensation but does not include an inmate of a correctional institution or like institution or facility who participates inside the institution or facility in a work project or rehabilitation program;
Self-employed persons

4. Subsection 25 (1), clauses 26 (1) (c), (e), (f) and (g), subsection 33 (1) and sections 34, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 51, 52, 54, 57, 59, 60, 61, 62, 66, 67, 68 and 69, and the Regulation The regulations made under this Act</SPAN> in relation thereto, apply with necessary modifications to a self-employed person. 2001, c. 9, Sched. I, s. 3 (1).
Note: On a day to be named by proclamation of the Lieutenant Governor, section 4 is amended by the Statutes of Ontario, 2001, chapter 9, Schedule I, subsection 3 (2) by striking out “34”. See: 2001, c. 9, Sched. I, ss. 3 (2), 5 (2).
What most people may misinterpret is that section 181 to 195 falls under “Regulations for Construction Projects”. The application of the regulation applies to building sites where the house under construction or building is under construction or under the supervision and direction of a builder.
http://www.csao.org/WebHelp/OHSA_and_Regs.htm

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

I hope this ON s**t does not migrate.