Clearing The Air Over The N.c.p.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by Colin Smythe

How timely to deny Canadians the right to know about a tax funded program by removing it from where it belongs in the public forum and putting it were Mr. Mullen can hide facts. Facts that show he is not being truthful. The finances of CAHPI/NCA show it is not at arms length as so often touted by Mr. Mullen.

Hi Ray. Bye Ray.

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

Originally Posted by gluck

I will post a few questions about the National here to see if we can once again get the ball rolling. Let's try to keep this thread focused on asking and answering questions. This is our chance to "clear the air" once and for all. So here goes;

3) It has been stated many times that there is a real problem with the quality of Home Inspection in Canada and that this problem has led to many complaints both within and without the court system. What relevant documentation , studies, surveys have been used to arrive at this conclusion. ( to clarify the word 'relevant' I will pick an arbitrary figure and say not more than five years old)

I just posted this on another thread. The Central and Northern Alberta BBB has received 1 home inspection complaint in the last 36 months and none in the last 12 months. that's for 74,000 home inspections per year. That's over 200.000 inspections in the last 3 years.
I summit that those people or associations that are telling everyone we need government control because of all the complaints are saying this because of their own misguided idea that licensing is going to save the world. Give me a break.

[Claude Lawrenson]

Thanks Vern - good point - I am not an advocate of licensing, it depends on many issues, however in the meantime:

So may I ask how many went to court in Alberta?
How many were settled out of court?
How many were settled between the client and home inspector, perhaps on a call back? How many of those were substantiated.

I don't disagree, I just feel that the real number is somewhat elusive! Perceptions can often be deceiving.

[George A. H. Luck]

I agree with Claude. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the numbers. I have been told by both Claude and Bill that they have or have seen the numbers originally used when the programme was initially proposed. It would be very informative to compare those early numbers to more modern numbers. How one is ever to arrive at a reliable number representing complaints that were settled out of court or between parties remains a mystery that can never be solved.

As Vern implied a pall has been thrown over the industry and the performance, qualifications, and reputation of every home inspector has been called into question. It would be nice to know why.

[Claude Lawrenson]

You can also base it on statistics from those "insurers" willing to provide that information on the track record of E&O claims. However, some are not so willing to offer that info.

Besides if the claim rates are so low - why are the insurance premiums going up?

[Allan G. Berdahl, CMI]

Claude,Good question on insurance.
Will NCP have a sway on premiums if standards are in place? Or are high rates due to problems experienced in the U.S. and are a carry over to Canadian markets?

[George A. H. Luck]

"why are the insurance premiums going up?"

Now that IS funny!!! It is called charging what the market will bare ( or squeezing blood from a stone!)

Claude can you steer us toward those stats?
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[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by gluck

I agree with Claude. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the numbers. I have been told by both Claude and Bill that they have or have seen the numbers originally used when the programme was initially proposed. It would be very informative to compare those early numbers to more modern numbers. How one is ever to arrive at a reliable number representing complaints that were settled out of court or between parties remains a mystery that can never be solved.

As Vern implied a pall has been thrown over the industry and the performance, qualifications, and reputation of every home inspector has been called into question. It would be nice to know why.

This doesn't happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by clawrenson

You can also base it on statistics from those "insurers" willing to provide that information on the track record of E&O claims. However, some are not so willing to offer that info.

Besides if the claim rates are so low - why are the insurance premiums going up?

Would be interesting to know what other groups like engineers, architects pay for E&O. I once heard it was lower than ours.....but couldn't believe that. Anyone know?

[Claude Lawrenson]

Yes they pay lower and assume higher risks! A person that is BCQ - building code qualified in Ontario even pays lower fees for E&O.

Remember a report claimed, win, loose, or draw is a claim made. It's not just about how many claims went to court!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by vmitchinson

I just posted this on another thread. The Central and Northern Alberta BBB has received 1 home inspection complaint in the last 36 months and none in the last 12 months. that's for 74,000 home inspections per year. That's over 200.000 inspections in the last 3 years.
I summit that those people or associations that are telling everyone we need government control because of all the complaints are saying this because of their own misguided idea that licensing is going to save the world. Give me a break.

I responded on that thread:

That's the BBB. If you really talk to people on the street, there's not much regard for the organization overall. At noon today I spoke to a quite prominent member (11 years of HI) of our chapter about a second complaint against a 1.5 year old HI old firm here. In passing, I mentioned the BBB and his response was basic disgust....keep away from them!

I went to website of the BBB you mentioned and found 8 complaints in the last 36 months! I was limited by their search engine to lists of 100 and then told to refine my search for a certain company!! I do not know all companies in Alberta.

So we all know that many to most people do not complain to the BBB contrary to some people's belief. We've heard of court cases involving HI's with no records of complaints at the BBB!! IMHO, not many complaints go the way of the BBB.


Here's a couple of the BBB entries:

- Company failed to respond to the BBB to resolve or address the complaint issues.
So did the complainant get any satisfaction or issues resolved? NO!!! The BBB has no power!! That’s why many of the public don’t respect the org. Complain all you want......save your energy, take it to your lawyer first!

- BBB determined the company made a reasonable offer to resolve the issues, but the consumer did not accept the offer.
Again no satisfaction for the customer. Here’s looking at it from their perspective:
"I complain to the BBB about a member who helps pay the BBB salaries and what do I get.....an insufficient offer......these folks are bought and paid!

[George A. H. Luck]

"This doesn't happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!"

I don't think that anyone has claimed that all inspectors are perfect ( except me of course ) but the stats behind the decisions should be made available to all. Otherwise the seeds of suspicion are planted.
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[Claude Lawrenson]

[quote=gluck]"This doesn't happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!"

Here is one source - CMHC - type in search document for "investigating claims against home inspectors" - I would post the document here - but the maximum file size is exceeded!Briefly it reviews 240 E&O claims for CAHI/CAHPI between 1997 - 2003 and the general impact on one segment of the home inspection sector. The full report gets into the financial impact of these claims, and reasons why insurance has increased. Furthermore it provides a glimpse at just a tip of the real picture.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

George:

The only way you'll get near accurate #'s is to get HI's, past and present, to be honest about claims/settlements/complaints. How do we do that? Will they admit they actually paid out monies or were in litigation, etc.? You can go research the BBB's, court proceedings but these are the tip of the iceberg, IMO. I'm hearing too much on the street.

For example, a highly respected HI in a national organization missed a major foundation settlement with a significant previous repair that should have raised his red flags!! This was a 4-5 year old house for a young minister with 3 children. The house foundation had been partially built on unconsolidated fill. While at the foundation only stage with no backfill and no floor system installed, the front 8' high wall separated and fell over after a very heavy rain.

For repair, the licensed carpenter/owner/builder then poured a concrete half wall topped off with a 4' preserved wood wall to lighten the weight in an attempt to prevent further settling. If you saw below grade, 3 concrete basement walls and a PW wall, would it raise questions......Should have..........why the one wood wall, Bud???

In the end, the neighbours sold the minister a small piece of additional land at the back of his property, they poured a new foundation on undisturbed soil and then moved the house about 35 feet onto it. Cost 15 years ago: approx $40,000!!!!

The HI then shut down his existing company and started another. The minister whom I personally talked to got no compensation......luckily his folks helped with further $$$$.

PLUS......as mentioned on another thread fairly recently:
2 years ago, I found 2 previously (with past 3-4 years) inspected houses with significant (approx 60%) K&T still in use. The purchasers, now vendors, knew nothing about it. The cost to the vendors.....$9,300 (replacement) and $10,000 (price reduction).....was absorbed by them. One seller had already moved out of the area (Toronto) and didn't want to pursue the HI. The other accepted a paper loss of $10,000 without going after the HI; he still had a decent gain of the house due to the recent 30-40% rise in house prices here.

I'm just one little guy not involved at all with the inner workings/politics/studies of the HI field. I don't go looking for this stuff much (well last night I did). I figure if I know stories like this though, there must be more out there.

Can we get HI's to be honest........I doubt it!!!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by clawrenson

Here is one source - CMHC - type in search document for "investigating claims against home inspectors" - I would post the document here - but the maximum file size is exceeded!Briefly it reviews 240 E&O claims for CAHI/CAHPI between 1997 - 2003 and the general impact on one segment of the home inspection sector. The full report gets into the financial impact of these claims, and reasons why insurance has increased. Furthermore it provides a glimpse at just a tip of the real picture.

Claude:

Funny how you and I feel the same about what's on the surface. I was composing the post following yours (and answering a call) but hadn't yet seen yours, when I used "tip of the iceberg".