Clearing The Air Over The N.c.p.

[George A. H. Luck]

FORGIVE MY POINT FORM. I'M OUT IN THE FIELD PRINTING UP A REPORT. NOT MEANT TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE JUST BRIEF AS I AM LOGGED ONTO AN UNSECURED WIRELESS SYSTEM


The only way you'll get near accurate #'s is to get HI's, past and present, to be honest about claims/settlements/complaints. How do we do that? Will they admit they actually paid out monies or were in litigation, etc.? You can go research the BBB's, court proceedings but these are the tip of the iceberg, IMO. I'm hearing too much on the street.

NOT ADMISSIBLE IN COURT . WHAT YOU ARE "HEARING ON THE STREET" IS STILL JUST OPINION AND CONJECTURE. NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR DECISIONS ON THE FUTURE OF MY BUSINESS.

For example, a highly respected HI in a national organization missed a major foundation settlement with a significant previous repair that should have raised his red flags!! This was a 4-5 year old house for a young minister with 3 children. The house foundation had been partially built on unconsolidated fill. While at the foundation only stage with no backfill and no floor system installed, the front 8' high wall separated and fell over after a very heavy rain.

For repair, the licensed carpenter/owner/builder then poured a concrete half wall topped off with a 4' preserved wood wall to lighten the weight in an attempt to prevent further settling. If you saw below grade, 3 concrete basement walls and a PW wall, would it raise questions......Should have..........why the one wood wall, Bud???

In the end, the neighbours sold the minister a small piece of additional land at the back of his property, they poured a new foundation on undisturbed soil and then moved the house about 35 feet onto it. Cost 15 years ago: approx $40,000!!!!

The HI then shut down his existing company and started another. The minister whom I personally talked to got no compensation......luckily his folks helped with further $$$$.

PLUS......as mentioned on another thread fairly recently:
2 years ago, I found 2 previously (with past 3-4 years) inspected houses with significant (approx 60%) K&T still in use. The purchasers, now vendors, knew nothing about it. The cost to the vendors.....$9,300 (replacement) and $10,000 (price reduction).....was absorbed by them. One seller had already moved out of the area (Toronto) and didn't want to pursue the HI. The other accepted a paper loss of $10,000 without going after the HI; he still had a decent gain of the house due to the recent 30-40% rise in house prices here.

INTERESTING SUBJECTIVE STORIES. CANNOT CLAIM THAT THEY ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL HOME INSPECTORS WITHOUT PROOF. HAVE SIMILAR STORIES ABOUT A LOCAL INSPECTOR WHO IS A LOCAL 'BIG WIG' IN SEVERAL ORGS. DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH ALL INSPECTORS. DOESN'T MEAN THAT CERTIFICATION WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM. MEANS WE ARE ALL HUMAN.

I'm just one little guy not involved at all with the inner workings/politics/studies of the HI field. I don't go looking for this stuff much (well last night I did). I figure if I know stories like this though, there must be more out there.

"STORIES" NOT PROOF. ANECDOTAL AT BEST.

Can we get HI's to be honest........I doubt it!!!

EVERYONE, REALTORS, HOME OWNERS, HOME INSPECTORS ADD THEIR OWN SPIN TO THESE "STORIES". NEED FACTS AND FIGURES FOR SUCH IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT AFFECT US ALL.
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[George A. H. Luck]

Thanks Claude. But Isn't Using Insurance Industry Numbers A Little Biased? How Many Inspectors Carry E+o Out Of The Total? Are The Insured A Greater Risk? Were The Numbers "cooked" To Justify Increasing Rates? Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by gluck

NEED FACTS AND FIGURES FOR SUCH IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT AFFECT US ALL.

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If you're afraid of the gov dumbing down the requirements, get involved with the process......it's probably eventually coming to us all. On the training side, get the bar set higher than we already have. If it costs virtually nothing to get into the field, many will rush in!!

In my own small province of under 1,000,000, there seems to be a new HI every 2-4 weeks with virtually no one retiring or going out of business. I hope they keep their day jobs!!

[Claude Lawrenson]

I will not disagree that insurers will be challenged by the finances and economics of the situation. Do they always represent the best interest of the home inspector, or the most economic way to resolve the issue.

On the issue of the "bigger picture" I do not know of any way to get every claim or near miss accounted for under the current system. How about those points already noted by Brian M? And not to discount the BBB numbers, they are just that some parts of the "bigger picture".

It really is just the "tip of the iceberg". That was the same problem faced in doing the research on the CMHC report. It was equally as difficult to get the insurers to release that information. You know with issues of confidentiality, privacy, etc.

How many inspectors practice with or without E&O?
How many home inspectors are there in Canada?
How many home were inspected in a set time frame?
How many Realtors have dealt with problems created by a home inspection?
How many home sales owners and home purchasers were impacted by a problematic home inspection?
There are many factors that can skew the numbers.

Lots of questions - with no easy answers or complete means to get a handle on this matter. However, each little piece of this puzzle helps provide at least some of that information.

[Nick Gromicko]

Thanks Claude. Good posts.

[Roy D. Cooke, #5]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

If you're afraid of the gov dumbing down the requirements, get involved with the process......it's probably eventually coming to us all. On the training side, get the bar set higher than we already have. If it costs virtually nothing to get into the field, many will rush in!!

In my own small province of under 1,000,000, there seems to be a new HI every 2-4 weeks with virtually no one retiring or going out of business. I hope they keep their day jobs!!

Bill Mullen is a home inspector
Claude Lawrenson ,sells home inspection Programs and teaches New home inspectors.
I think he makes very little if any income from doing home inspections.

We unfortunately have too many in Ontario turning out many more home inspectors who have very little chance of ever becoming a home Inspector.

3 years invested and $10,000;00~ is very hard on many families.

Roy Cooke

[Claude Lawrenson]

Originally Posted by Roy D. Cooke, #5

Bill Mullen is a home inspector
Claude Lawrenson ,sells home inspection Programs and teaches New home inspectors.
I think he makes very little if any income from doing home inspections.

We unfortunately have too many in Ontario turning out many more home inspectors who have very little chance of ever becoming a home Inspector.

3 years invested and $10,000;00~ is very hard on many families.

Roy Cooke

Yes, I am a partner in Inspection Support Services Inc. We do sell reporting software, and provide mentoring, onsite inspection training and customized training for home inspection groups. We have completed work of large contracts for "inspector training" including 3 day up to 1 week workshops for CMHC and NRCan. Seems we must be doing something right!

I also teach online for Humber College delivering education for Home Inspectors. Humber is a far cry from one of those home inspection diploma mills. It has official recognition of two home inspection programs of study involving in excess of 400 hours of education and training, that is recognized by the Ministry of Colleges and Universities.

Actually you are partially correct, I inspect part-time, and the majority of my inspection work involves litigation support dealing with claims against builders, contractors and inspectors.

I seldom teach for OAHI anymore......

I agree that getting into the home inspection sector can be expensive, and furthermore that home inspectors should get as much education and practical experience as possible to prepared to suceed! However, is not just those that are fooled by looking for the short cuts, but those that feel they are ready regardless of background, that feel this is an easy profession to get into and make $$$$. In this case you are pointing fingers at the wrong person.

Again this is not just an Ontario problem, this is a bigger issue in most any province or state. However, with that said - who is perpetuating this problem - not all home inspection training programs, and certainly not all trainers, et al.

I too have offered courses and educational opportunities for home inspectors for free. I have never stated or promised any person they will get rich quick, nor offered them any shortcuts. This business for home inspection is not just about ease of entry. There is much, much, more.

So who really is trying to fool who?

[Roy D. Cooke, #5]

I find it so unfortunate to see so many invest so much money and Time and the odds of making a living seem to be less then one in ten.
Some how we need to let those know that the odds are extremely small of lasting three plus years.
Those who are in the teaching and selling end push their services and products.
Seldom does any one talk about how low the success rate is.

I am doing wrong by trying to get this information out to those who are looking for a profession to make a living at.

Roy Cooke

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by Roy D. Cooke, #5

I find it so unfortunate to see so many invest so much money and Time and the odds of making a living seem to be less then one in ten.
Some how we need to let those know that the odds are extremely small of lasting three plus years.
Those who are in the teaching and selling end push their services and products.
with promises or $10,000 -$30,000/month billings!! Snake oil salesmen of the last 10-20 years.
EXAMPLE:

Thinking about a Career Change or a New Business Opportunity?

Build your own Regional Master Franchise of Home Inspection Offices
In today’s real estate market 95% of real estate transactions require a home inspection.

House Sale = Home Inspection = Home Inspector
Currently we have inspectors billing $10,000 - $30,000 per Month!



Seldom does any one talk about how low the success rate is.
Nothing wrong with telling the truth. You may have saved someone from a poor investment, especially if they are younger and would be better served by going into trades, college, etc.

I am doing wrong by trying to get this information out to those who are looking for a profession to make a living at.

Roy Cooke

Not at all; very few others are......especially the mills. For those close to retirement, it may be the thing especially if they have extensive and varied building experience. I had a call from a 58 year old gent yesterday inquiring about HI after viewing my website (in the field longer than anyone else in this chapter). Gave him the straight poop as I see it (basicaly same as yours); he said he'd have to have a hard, long look at it then.

[Claude Lawrenson]

No Roy - I do not disagree with your concern. As a "professional" educator, I feel we all have a duty not to gloss over the reality. It starts with being honest and realistic about those odds of succeeding.

However, "some" coming into this naturally look for the easiest and cheapest route. To add to that they disregard the realties of risk and how difficult it can be build their business. So it's not just about education, it is dealing with "mind sets" that are looking for "opportunities".

Some are fortunate to have gained knowledge and experience through some great and honourable mentors. Unfortunately there are few, and not enough willing to step forward to help one another. Many are too busy, or fearful of training their competitor. But that is a whole other issue.

As I stated earlier, having taught through Humber College has given me an opportunity to become exposed to, and also see a good number enter the profession. Yes, many wait out a year or more getting a good solid foundation; while others want to leap into the fire!

I do not have the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that over half never complete the full program of study of home inspection in a year long period. Some load up the courses and take on too much and fail, or drop out. Some quickly realize those harsh realties, and move on.

Remember some do not even venture into training, because they already feel they know enough. So it's not just about some educators, it's also about realizing vulnerabilities and gaps before the inspector gets too far into trouble. As they say - some will never learn! I will also add - Other do not want to learn or be told!

[Roy D. Cooke, #5]

Originally Posted by clawrenson

No Roy - I do not disagree with your concern. As a "professional" educator, I feel we all have a duty not to gloss over the reality. It starts with being honest and realistic about those odds of succeeding.

However, "some" coming into this naturally look for the easiest and cheapest route. To add to that they disregard the realties of risk and how difficult it can be build their business. So it's not just about education, it is dealing with "mind sets" that are looking for "opportunities".

Some are fortunate to have gained knowledge and experience through some great and honourable mentors. Unfortunately there are few, and not enough willing to step forward to help one another. Many are too busy, or fearful of training their competitor. But that is a whole other issue.

As I stated earlier, having taught through Humber College has given me an opportunity to become exposed to, and also see a good number enter the profession. Yes, many wait out a year or more getting a good solid foundation; while others want to leap into the fire!

I do not have the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that over half never complete the full program of study of home inspection in a year long period. Some load up the courses and take on too much and fail, or drop out. Some quickly realize those harsh realties, and move on.

Remember some do not even venture into training, because they already feel they know enough. So it's not just about some educators, it's also about realizing vulnerabilities and gaps before the inspector gets too far into trouble. As they say - some will never learn! I will also add - Other do not want to learn or be told!

Thanks very much Claude many true statements .
I just wish other would also tell it like it is Thanks . Roy

I am mentoring two HIs and have been for the last few months .
They both tell me they have learned so much more then they did with all the schooling they have taken .
I expect their odds of being making a living are a lot higher then most others .

[Roy D. Cooke, #5]

Originally Posted by Roy D. Cooke, #5

Bill Mullen is a home inspector
Claude Lawrenson ,sells home inspection Programs and teaches New home inspectors.
I think he makes very little if any income from doing home inspections.

We unfortunately have too many in Ontario turning out many more home inspectors who have very little chance of ever becoming a home Inspector.

3 years invested and $10,000;00~ is very hard on many families.

Roy Cooke

Gee Here I tell the truth and get see below .
I have cleaned it up just think what Might have been said if I did not tell the truth .
Sorry if I upset you but you look kind of simple the way I see it .
Well in two days this will be a fifth Friday in February.
I guess you where not even born the last time we had five Fridays in February.
Enjoy this rare occurrence . Roy Cooke

Comment Clearing The Air Over... 2/27/08 1:30 PM Roy, YOU FU'xXXXXX PUNK! You SUxx! You are such a lowlife scumbag jackazz! GO F U CxK YOURSELF! Scumbag! Scumbag! Scumbag! Piece O' ****e! ANOTHER "RED SQUARE" FOR YOU !!!!


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[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

So we all know that many to most people do not complain to the BBB contrary to some people's belief. We've heard of court cases involving HI's with no records of complaints at the BBB!! IMHO, not many complaints go the way of the BBB.("Look below I guess we in the Centre of Canada are lucky")
Here's a couple of the BBB entries:

- Company failed to respond to the BBB to resolve or address the complaint issues.
So did the complainant get any satisfaction or issues resolved? NO!!! The BBB has no power!! That’s why many of the public don’t respect the org. Complain all you want......save your energy, take it to your lawyer first!

- BBB determined the company made a reasonable offer to resolve the issues, but the consumer did not accept the offer.
Again no satisfaction for the customer. Here’s looking at it from their perspective:
"I complain to the BBB about a member who helps pay the BBB salaries and what do I get.....an insufficient offer......these folks are bought and paid!

Gee todays Toronto Star shows a different story about the BBB .
Looks to me they do a pretty good job. Any idea of a better method then the BBB
Roy Cooke

Wecare' doesn't tell the real tale TheStar.com - Business - `Wecare' doesn't tell the real tale
March 01, 2008
Ellen Roseman

Bloomex is an online florist, based in Ottawa, that offers same-day delivery across Canada.
But the company has strict policies on returns and refunds. And customers say they can't escalate their complaints when things go wrong.
Colleen Clarke ordered two plant arrangements on the morning of Dec. 31. One was going to Calgary, the other to Edmonton.
"Bloomex guaranteed same-day delivery, which is why I chose to use the company," she says.
The Calgary basket arrived on Jan. 3. The Edmonton basket didn't show up by Jan. 4, when she left for an overseas trip.
Her aunt in Edmonton said the flowers were upside down and out of the basket when they finally arrived. Bloomex has a policy that customers can't get replacements unless they send photos by email. But not everyone can comply.
"My aunt, who's over 75, told them four times that she didn't have a camera and had no way of taking the picture. Finally, she told them to forget it," Clarke says.
Back in Toronto on Jan. 21, she tried to speak to a Bloomex manager. She reached only a call centre.
On Jan. 28, she got her Visa bill showing a refund for the Edmonton order. Bloomex had picked it up from her aunt's home on Jan. 15.
But she was still charged $9.95 each for the two late deliveries.
"At this point, I am spitting mad," she said. "I want the two delivery fees deleted and an apology for the horrific treatment, live on the phone by a management person."
I found many Bloomex complaints online. The Better Business Bureau had processed 37 complaints in midwestern Ontario and 63 complaints in eastern Ontario. (There's no BBB in Toronto.)
"The company has an unsatisfactory record with the BBB due to its decision not to accept or respond to complaints from the BBB," both bureaus said.
When I called president Dimitri Lokhonia, whose name I got from the BBB website, he called me back right away. He said Bloomex delivered 10,000 orders a month. By cutting out the middleman, the company could offer fresher flowers and lower prices.
Clarke should have read the terms and conditions, posted online and sent by email to her, he said.
Bloomex doesn't deliver on Sunday and statutory holidays. Nor does it offer same-day delivery in Edmonton. That's available only in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Calgary and Vancouver.
Because she'd placed her order on Dec. 31, she couldn't expect same-day delivery.
"Some people are not happy. As a consumer writer, you can understand that," Lokhonia tells me. Posting a comment at the On Your Side blog, he tries to explain the many complaints.
"We compete against all local overpriced flower shops and sometimes owners of these shops put their comments online, pretending to be an unhappy customer."
He sends me Clarke's file and I can see why she's angry. All the communication is at her end and she never gets a response.
On Jan. 23, she asked for someone in authority to call her or she'd go to the newspaper. A note on her file said: "Order was picked up. She was refunded. Nothing we can do at this point."
Bloomex boasts about caring for customers and uses wecare@bloomex.ca as its email address.
But if Lokhonia truly cared, he would pick up the phone when customers asked for a manager, stop badmouthing complainers and start co-operating with the BBB.
Then, he'd see his online business really start to bloom.
Write to onyourside@thestar.ca

[Brian A. MacNeish]

From the article:
There's no BBB in Toronto

Doesn't that in itself tell a story??

The nation's largest city and economic hub can't (or won't support) a BBB! Maybe the good folks (read: COMPANIES) see the lack of power it has. Or is it....... TORONTO the GOOD doesn't have these complaints, frauds and bad service? I'm surprised and perplexed....not.


From Wikipedia:

Criticisms
The BBB has been said to be less effective in complaint resolution than governmental consumer protection agencies. As it is not a government agency, its capabilities are confined to reporting bad, or allegedly bad, business practices to the public and the proper authorities. Nevertheless, their dispute resolution process remains an effective way for many consumers to get immediate satisfaction as BBB staffers are much more responsive than most government agencies and businesses fear the affect of an unsatisfactory record if they don't resolve the complaint.

(When I looked at the northern Alberta BBB site, most HI complaints were unresolved or not responded to!!)

Another criticism against the BBB is the fact that its revenue comes from accredited businesses, raising the question about its partiality on handling disputes and complaints when the BBB may jeopardize its own funding. This criticism is refuted by the system as most BBB's routinely reject applications for accreditation and kick out businesses that are paying for accreditation when they violate the Standards of Trust as determined by the national Council. Many BBB's have lists on their local websites of rejected and revoked businesses.
Although recognized as a national body, each BBB entity is run separately, much like a franchise. Corporations that find themselves moving from one location to another (that falls in the jurisdiction of another BBB) cannot transfer their membership because one BBB franchise does not recognize another BBB franchise. A corporation must completely eradicate their membership from one BBB and then reapply in the new area, losing all their "good faith" and "good record". Any company record can be found, regardless of geographic location, by using their national database at www.bbb.org which minimizes this concern.
Both the National Council of Better Business Bureaus and most of the 120 locally operated chapters are aware of these criticisms and work diligently to overcome them by being as fair and unbiased as they can be. The public is getting the message as instances of services are increasing throughout the Better Business Bureau system.
(Don't forget that instances of bad service, fraud, etc are also increasing. I wonder if the increase they see is simply matching the general trend or is it higher? My $$$$ are on the former!!)

In the Atlantic Provinces, out of 60-80+ HI's operating, only 1 is a registered BBB member!!! What's enrollment like elsewhere?

[George A. H. Luck]

If you're afraid of the gov dumbing down the requirements, get involved with the process......it's probably eventually coming to us all. On the training side, get the bar set higher than we already have. If it costs virtually nothing to get into the field, many will rush in!!

If you are relying on the government's setting the bar higher to keep new inspectors out of the system you will be very disappointed. As has been pointed out numerous times by others, once the bar has been set it gives everyone a target to aim for. And aim they do!


In my own small province of under 1,000,000, there seems to be a new HI every 2-4 weeks with virtually no one retiring or going out of business. I hope they keep their day jobs!!

The free market will take care of the over population of inspectors. The good ones, the ones who do their jobs well; the ones who work to market their services will survive. It is the way the market works. The good inspectors grow and the weaker do not. Trust yourself and your abilities. You do not need big government to tell you that you are good enough, or that you cannot succeed without help.