Congrat's Obama

[cboyd]

You are right Brian, we do have the working poor, and way too many of them. Thanks to high corporate taxes. We in North America have the chance to do anything we want, achieve anything we want, we just have to choose to do the work it takes to get it. Obama took away any right for anyone to complain about racism or anything else holding you back. The only thing holding us back is us. I am not as radical to believe things like that woman in Florida, Obama will not ruin the country or make every one give up their wealth, he will help some and hurt some just like any other leader. It's not the end of the free world as we know it, I just don't think alot of his ideas work in the real world.

[jbehling]

Originally Posted by cboyd

, Obama will not ruin the country

You're right, George W already beat him to it.

Obama is going to go a long way in repairing the damage the last eight years of Bush politics have done to USA and the world.

Yes You Did.

[George A. H. Luck]

'Obama is going to go a long way in repairing the damage the last eight years of Bush politics have done to USA and the world.'

YOU EITHER ARE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE FACTS OR HAVE A VERY DARK SENSE OF HUMOUR. I PREFER THE LATTER, BUT SUSPECT THE FORMER.

[George A. H. Luck]

'The repugnant GOP tried to make Obama sound like he just read Karl Marx and was ready to transform the US to that man's ideas'

YOU FINALLY GOT SOMETHING RIGHT BRIAN AS DID THE 'REPUGNANT GOP'. CONGRATULATIONS. THIS IS THE MOST SOCIALIST PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY BACKED BY AN EQUALLY SOCIALIST PARTY. FORTUNATELY WE ARE NOT IN THIS MESS IN CANADA. EMBRACE CANADA'S SWING TO THE RIGHT BEFORE IT CONSUMES YOU.

'I did a gov pilot energy retrofit project with the poor last year and I believe 1 out of my 26 clients was in your description of the poor'

IF YOU HAD LOOKED FARTHER THAN THE END OR YOUR IDEOLOGY, BRIAN, YOU WOULD HAVE PROBABLY FOUND THAT MOST OF THE WORKING POOR ARE RENTERS, NOT HOME OWNERS AND ARE NOT SPENDING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON ENERGY PROGRAMMES. THE CHOSEN FEW WHO WERE FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT ARE HARDLY A SCIENTIFIC SAMPLE.

[jbehling]

Originally Posted by gluck

'Obama is going to go a long way in repairing the damage the last eight years of Bush politics have done to USA and the world.'

YOU EITHER ARE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE FACTS OR HAVE A VERY DARK SENSE OF HUMOUR. I PREFER THE LATTER, BUT SUSPECT THE FORMER.

I think you are the ignorant one. Do you keep up with current events?

Man, you guys walk around with blinders on, don't you?

[wblakey]

I am always amazed at the fear many Americans have of such things as medical care for all and the right to a living wage.

If I get sick and can't work long term I won't have to sell my house to pay for medical treatment. What can possibly be wrong with that?

As for our "right wing" government, Harper is more liberal than Obama by several degrees, so I'm not terribly worried (also he has a minority government so the amount of damage he can do is limited.)

[Bill Mullen]

Originally Posted by wblakey

I am always amazed at the fear many Americans have of such things as medical care for all and the right to a living wage.

If I get sick and can't work long term I won't have to sell my house to pay for medical treatment. What can possibly be wrong with that?

As for our "right wing" government, Harper is more liberal than Obama by several degrees, so I'm not terribly worried (also he has a minority government so the amount of damage he can do is limited.)

Right you are, Paul.

People can mock our 'Sopcialized Medicine' all they want, and of course it has its flaws, but I can state loudly that it's keeping me out of the poor house. I have a wife and a son who both have brain tumors which will hoepfully be removed within the next three months.

We were discouraged with having to wait for surgery, so. living in a border cty, we went to the USA to see how fast it could be done. My wife's surgery and aftercare cost was around $ 225,000. and my son's which is much more complicated is over $ 300,000. I don't have that kind of money in a cookie jar anywhere.

Not only that, but since my son's surgery has not got a 100% chance of success, the surgeons don't want to do him, because their fees are tied to their success rates.

Bill Mullen

In Canada neither surgery will cost us a dime.

[George A. H. Luck]

With all due respect Bill, and I mean this, let's hope that the 'free' Canadian surgery is not too late. It wouldn't have been south of the border.

One of the ways of determining the true cost of our 'free' health care system is to compare our unemployment rate with that of the United States. All the extra taxation to pay for the ' free ' health care, raises the cost of doing business in Canada and leads to that higher unemployment rate. What is the true cost of Canada's 'free' health care system? One way to find out is to ask the man who cannot find a job and whose children go to bed ( if they have one) hungry.

[wblakey]

Originally Posted by gluck

With all due respect Bill, and I mean this, let's hope that the 'free' Canadian surgery is not too late. It wouldn't have been south of the border.

One of the ways of determining the true cost of our 'free' health care system is to compare our unemployment rate with that of the United States. All the extra taxation to pay for the ' free ' health care, raises the cost of doing business in Canada and leads to that higher unemployment rate. What is the true cost of Canada's 'free' health care system? One way to find out is to ask the man who cannot find a job and whose children go to bed ( if they have one) hungry.

If you want a good look at the American system check our Michael Moore's film "Sicko."

[Michael Larson]

(from the WWW)

Dear Friends:

Michael Moore ends the movie "Sicko" with a lie. It may not be an intentional lie, but it is a falsehood, nonetheless. Michael Moore ends the movie saying that every European country offers "free" health coverage to their citizens and every European country provides such coverage through a "single payer" system.

Both statements are untrue. It is a sad commentary on the pathetically, uninformed state of the health care policy debate in America that health care journalists and American political leaders do not simply know that both of the statements are untrue and that they have not responded clearly and quickly to correct the error.

So what makes these statements untrue? Reality. Most European countries directly charge their citizens for their health coverage. It is not "free" anywhere. Some nations require people to buy coverage from health insurance companies that look very much like American health insurance companies. Other countries use a payroll tax on everyone's paycheck to pay for health coverage. In those countries, each citizen pays a portion of their weekly paycheck for health insurance - - just like our Social Security payroll deduction. In Germany, each employee pays 7 percent of each paycheck for health care and each employer matches that 7 percent. People also can spend additional money to buy better coverage.

The government of the Netherlands takes 9 percent of a worker's paycheck every week to purchase health coverage - - it's hard to figure out how Michael Moore can legitimately call such a payroll deduction "free."

Also, when the government of the Netherlands deducts that 9 percent, or when Germany deducts their 14 percent -- they do not use, as Mr. Moore incorrectly claims, a "single payer system" like Canada to provide the actual health insurance for each citizen. Each of those countries has multiple health plans - or "sickness funds" -- that people choose among. Citizens of Switzerland and the Netherlands choose between competing health plans to purchase their coverage.

So "Sicko" ends with a double lie: Coverage in Europe is not "free," nor is it provided through a pure, Canadian-like single payer system. "Sicko" either deliberately misleads us or is unintentionally wrong.

Each country in Europe has found its own unique path to universal coverage. Switzerland has no government health program at all. Everyone in Switzerland is required to purchase from one of nearly 100 competing insurance companies. (The Swiss government pays for coverage for the poor.)

What about France - - a country Michael Moore described as Eden in "Sicko?" The government uses a sales tax approach and uses that money to buy a basic (not comprehensive) package of coverage for about 80 percent of the French people. The basic government benefit coverage is somewhat incomplete, however, so 92 percent of the people in France now purchase additional private insurance to fill in the 20 - 40 percent gap in various parts of their government benefits. About 20 percent of the French people skip the government program completely and purchase only private coverage. In either case, the coverage isn't free and is not handled through a Canadian single-payer model.

It's unclear from the movie whether Mr. Moore knows that he is not telling the truth about Europe's health care systems, or whether he is still low on a learning curve relative to health care financing and delivery. The learning curve seems pretty steep. He criticizes the U.S. government Medicare drug benefit in "Sicko," and he claims with some passion that the Canadians handle drug coverage much better. So how does the Canadian government actually handle drug coverage? Seven out of eight provinces do not cover non-hospital drug costs for anyone other than low income seniors. The federal government does not cover anyone.

People in those seven Canadian provinces might actually prefer the American Medicare system of partial coverage (favored by over 80 percent of enrollees), which Mr. Moore seems to sneer at in the movie. American Medicare drug coverage can have a "donut hole" in the middle. Seven of eight Canadian provinces skip the donut and give the citizens only the hole.

"Sicko" also tells the story of a Canadian on a golf vacation in Florida to illustrate the alleged superiority of the Canadian insurance and care delivery system because - - Mr. Moore claims in the movie - - the Canadian actually rushed home to Canada when he needed health care rather than getting that care in Florida. A valuable piece of information that "Sicko" conveniently does not mention at that point is that the Canadian government health coverage does not travel. Americans who are insured almost always have health coverage that covers at least emergencies whenever we travel. Canadians, however, have such long backlogs for care in so many places that the Canadian government benefit program can't afford to let people simply leave Canada to access care elsewhere. So the Canadian system that Mr. Moore so eagerly advocates decided not to let its health care benefits "travel" outside of Canada. Canadians in Florida, therefore, actually do return to Canada for care when they can... not because they don't think Americans deliver quality care, rather because their government does not cover care in America.

Again, it's not clear if Mr. Moore is low on the learning curve on that point, or more directly duplicitous. We will probably learn which statement is true as the debate progresses.

There are rumors Mr. Moore offers $10,000 rewards for anyone who can prove that any point in his movies is untrue. Since he says that "every" country in Europe uses the Canadian model, and since there are quite a few countries in Europe, does he owe $10,000 per country or just $10,000 for getting Europe wrong as a package? Or is it $10,000 per country on "single payer" and another $10,000 per country for "free"?

We can let his conscience decide. Money is owed, however.

Thank you.

Sarah Berk
Executive Director, Health Care America



Health Care America is a nonpartisan, not-for-profit advocacy organization devoted to promoting the fundamental principles of access, choice, quality, innovation and competition in our health care system.

[George A. H. Luck]

Right, Paul. Like Moore is a reliable source of information.

[wblakey]

As a proponent of free speech, I think Michael Moore is a courageous person.

If you like living with the health system you have then fine. What about the people on the film who had health insurance who were getting shafted by Doctors who were paid by the insurance company to find ways to refuse people coverage.

That is sick.

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by wblakey

If you like living with the health system you have then fine. What about the people on the film who had health insurance who were getting shafted by Doctors who were paid by the insurance company to find ways to refuse people coverage.

That is sick.

Too many people don't worry about it as long as it happens to someone else!!!

[klott]

Sicko was a mistake, someone thought it was the name of the movie, when it was actually the producers name. Michael Moore? Good grief!

[Jason1]

Congrat's Obama 11/8/08 11:15 PMdfghjCongrat's Obama 11/5/08 6:17 AMosama sucks ****Congrat's Obama 11/4/08 7:45 PMPlease, Jason, mind your own business. Thank you.Congrat's Obama 10/22/08 2:38 PMHey Jason! You little WEASEL! YOU SUCK! Go crawl back into your hole! Luv Mom


Very mature by you all.

Really, tell me how you really feel.