National Certification Program - Preliminary discussion to Bill Mullen presentation.

[Bill Mullen]

Originally Posted by vmitchinson

Where is the home buyer in all this?
Since the cash group seems to be home inspectors this does not represent the home buyer.
!4 members. not one home buyer.
Even if cash was 100% home buyers the other 13 would overwelm them.
So where is the buyer in all this?

Maybe you guys should go to bed. That is not a list of home inspectors. In fact, there are only three inspectors on that list. The others are homeowners.

Go to the CASH and the CPBH website to see how happy consumers are about their houses and the fact that they have few people on their side.

Bill Mullen

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

Originally Posted by Bill Mullen

How about all the insurance companies that have hundreds of complaints against inspectors laid by consumers? That's pretty serious consumer feedback. Or better yet, research some lawsuits against home inspectors. That's a pretty good indication tha consumers aren't all happy with us.

Bill Mullen

Show me the numbers. I want to see a list of cases where the money was actually paid or at the very least the total dollars paid in claims and the number of claims.

I've reviewed all the lawsuits in Alberta and I have only found three cases where the inspector was found at fault.

[wjung]

Bill,
as you are well aware I was a full member and RHI in good standing in OAHI until my resignation in 2003 or 4 for reasons, as you like to say are in the past. Prior to being an OAHI member I was aligned with PACHI and active on the BOD of that association. I contributed just as yourself countless hours of volunteer time and in fact was present when the national got started. Through all these years (approx.10) I have not only contributed my time as a volunteer on the BOD of PACHI, but also on the DPPC of OAHI after amalgamation. So I have financially contributed at least the $600 dollars you spoke of in your earlier post. Now that I have resigned from OAHI are you suggesting that my financial contribution would not be recognized by CAHPI. How would you suggest the test fee structure for the national be adjusted to facilitate individuals who have a history of financial contribution, but are no longer active CAHPI/OAHI members?
Best regards
Wolf

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

Originally Posted by Bill Mullen

Maybe you guys should go to bed. That is not a list of home inspectors. In fact, there are only three inspectors on that list. The others are homeowners.

Go to the CASH and the CPBH website to see how happy consumers are about their houses and the fact that they have few people on their side.

Bill Mullen

Your snide remark is uncalled for.

Do you have the web addresses CPBH and CASH. A list of their executive would be good.

[Vern Mitchinson, CMI]

Originally Posted by Bill Mullen

Maybe you guys should go to bed. That is not a list of home inspectors. In fact, there are only three inspectors on that list. The others are homeowners.

Bill Mullen

I did not ask about inspectors
I asked about home buyers?
How many home buyers on that committee?

[Bill Mullen]

Originally Posted by wjung

Bill,
as you are well aware I was a full member and RHI in good standing in OAHI until my resignation in 2003 or 4 for reasons, as you like to say are in the past. Prior to being an OAHI member I was aligned with PACHI and active on the BOD of that association. I contributed just as yourself countless hours of volunteer time and in fact was present when the national got started. Through all these years (approx.10) I have not only contributed my time as a volunteer on the BOD of PACHI, but also on the DPPC of OAHI after amalgamation. So I have financially contributed at least the $600 dollars you spoke of in your earlier post. Now that I have resigned from OAHI are you suggesting that my financial contribution would not be recognized by CAHPI. How would you suggest the test fee structure for the national be adjusted to facilitate individuals who have a history of financial contribution, but are no longer active CAHPI/OAHI members?
Best regards
Wolf

You know what, Wolf? That's a darn good question and one that I don't have an answer for. It has been discussed, but I think it's one of those things that kind of got pushed to the back burner without a resolution. I'll get an answer back as soon as possible.

Bill Mullen

[wjung]

Bill,
thank you for your reply. I would think that some form of provission should be set in place to accomodate the scenario I outlined. I would apprciate if you could find some kind of answer for me.
Best regards
Wolf

[wblakey]

The two-tier fee idea is fraught with danger, as the case just mentioned shows. The worst thing is that it gives the impression that CAHPI members are somehow 'special.' Why not just set one price for all and have done with it?

[Darrell B. Hadler]

Bill, Of those hundreds of complaints to insurance companies...how many of those do you think are bonified/legitimate complaints. If most of them are anything like some of the ones I've had, they wouldn't even make it to a court or trial. They are just dilution ed home buyers that got an inspection and figured they shouldn't have to spend any money on repair & maintenance on a home thats 30 to 50 years old, or when Mike Holmes ripped the drywall off the walls and found mold,...well why didn't my home inspector see this? As you well know, unfounded complaints are probably the MAJORITY.

And just for prospective, it would be nice to know if those "hundreds" of complaints were out of tens of thousands.....hundreds of thousands....a million?? of total home inspections actually performed.

You also mentioned something about not having to join this National certification. This is all fine and dandy, but RUMOR has it, that the Realtors and their associations are calling for certification of some kind and are going to require that anyone doing an inspection for a Realtor sold home is going to have to have this certification or they won't allow it? If this is the case, then the statement about not having to join would not be an accurate statement, correct? We have to inspect to earn a living and if cut out of Realtor controlled sales. I doubt anyone could live off FSBO listings.

If National Certification becomes mandatory, would it mean I would be out of my full time way of earning a living, if I don't swallow all this. As far as I know, that's unconstitutional. Do you think the courts will back this if hundreds of home inspectors decide to buck this. The association will need every cent of the money they collect just to pay court costs and our wages /income we lose because they shut us down. This smells a whole lot like the GUN REGISTRY scandal...a good idea on paper and to the bureaucrats but just a HUGE waste of time and MILLIONS of DOLLARS of our taxpayers monies AGAIN.

I for one say, let the private Market place dictate our future. They will do it much quicker, and for a whole lot less money. If your a lousy inspector you'll be out of business real quick, one way or the other.(either no business, or they'll sue you for everthing youv'e got) If your a good inspector, you'll flourish and be in business for as many years as you want.

Did I understand you correctly, that the gov't has already thrown a million dollars towards this certification....... I guess that supports my GUN REGISTRY theory. No disrespect directed to you personally Bill, This is just my personal feelings to wards a gov't backed/one association, rule and cure the worlds problems type of idea. I don't think it will work, I don't think the courts will back the intrusion into already practicing home inspectors life styles. It's just another form of dictatorship to an association who themselves got into the game in its infancy and intends on sneaking in before most of even know whats happening or going on. If they think it's warming up now, see what happens when all of a sudden every home inspector across the country gets a letter stating they have to comply to this new law that most had little to do with or maybe haven't even heard of yet.
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[Darrell B. Hadler]

I also read that a structural engineer and a Realtor would be judging your performance.....a Realtor ....thats absurd to say the least. The only person that should be overseeing these on site tests should be a HOME INSPECTOR with many, many years under his belt or a retired home inspector, something along those lines.


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[Bill Mullen]

Originally Posted by dhadler

I also read that a structural engineer and a Realtor would be judging your performance.....a Realtor ....thats absurd to say the least. The only person that should be overseeing these on site tests should be a HOME INSPECTOR with many, many years under his belt or a retired home inspector, something along those lines.


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Darrel:

The engineer (I never said he was structural engineer, you added that) and realtor have nothing to do with the site tests or judging your performance. They sit on a committee that looks at the curriculums offered by course providers and they help compare those courses to the National Occupational Standards.
The ONLY people who will be Examiners for the TIPR's (Site tests as you call them) will be experienced, respected Home Inspectors. Some, as you say, are retired or semi-retired inspectors with many years of experience. Therefore, it's exactly what you wanted.

Bill Mullen

[Darrell B. Hadler]

Originally Posted by Bill Mullen

Darrel:

The engineer (I never said he was structural engineer, you added that) and realtor have nothing to do with the site tests or judging your performance. They sit on a committee that looks at the curriculums offered by course providers and they help compare those courses to the National Occupational Standards.
The ONLY people who will be Examiners for the TIPR's (Site tests as you call them) will be experienced, respected Home Inspectors. Some, as you say, are retired or semi-retired inspectors with many years of experience. Therefore, it's exactly what you wanted.

Bill Mullen

Thank-you for clearing that one up...that is a relief.

Bill, humor me for just a minute here and put yourself in our position (paid members in the largest home inspection association on the planet, NACHI). someone comes along from another association and implies that they are calling the shots from here on in, don't you think the hair on the back of you're neck would be standing on end. It just doesn't smell right. We paid our dues to the organization we felt was the best, just as those did that belong to CAHPI, and now we are being penalized by paying higher rates for certification because we don't belong the "right" organization. I don't care how polite you say it, it just doesn't cut it.

I would like to see your response to my previous post as well if you wouldn't mind.

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by Bill Mullen

The fees for certification are $ 500. for CAHPI members and $ 1100 for non-CAHPI members. Those figures recognize that CAHPI members have provided more than $ 600 per person on average to this initiative in the past ten years. That investment is part of their certification fee. It also recognizes that it will cost less to process a CAHPI member because their documents are already on file and can be readily accessed.
Bill Mullen

What is the annual fee to maintain *NCH* status once achieved?

[Bill Mullen]

Originally Posted by dhadler

(I'm in red...BillM) Bill, Of those hundreds of complaints to insurance companies...how many of those do you think are bonified/legitimate complaints. If most of them are anything like some of the ones I've had, they wouldn't even make it to a court or trial. They are just dilution ed home buyers that got an inspection and figured they shouldn't have to spend any money on repair & maintenance on a home thats 30 to 50 years old, or when Mike Holmes ripped the drywall off the walls and found mold,...well why didn't my home inspector see this? As you well know, unfounded complaints are probably the MAJORITY. I totally agree. When I was CAHPI President, I received a monthly printout from Encon Insurance listing every claim against a CAHPI inspector. At least half were easy to shoot down, but the insurance company of course settled far too easily on many.

And just for prospective, it would be nice to know if those "hundreds" of complaints were out of tens of thousands.....hundreds of thousands....a million?? of total home inspections actually performed.
Of course they were, but one loud complaint can upset a politician.

You also mentioned something about not having to join this National certification. This is all fine and dandy, but RUMOR has it, that the Realtors and their associations are calling for certification of some kind and are going to require that anyone doing an inspection for a Realtor sold home is going to have to have this certification or they won't allow it? If this is the case, then the statement about not having to join would not be an accurate statement, correct? We have to inspect to earn a living and if cut out of Realtor controlled sales. I doubt anyone could live off FSBO listings.
We have no control over what realtors would like or not like. If they decide that we should all be certified, I guess we should get certified.

If National Certification becomes mandatory, would it mean I would be out of my full time way of earning a living, if I don't swallow all this. As far as I know, that's unconstitutional. Do you think the courts will back this if hundreds of home inspectors decide to buck this. The association will need every cent of the money they collect just to pay court costs and our wages /income we lose because they shut us down. This smells a whole lot like the GUN REGISTRY scandal...a good idea on paper and to the bureaucrats but just a HUGE waste of time and MILLIONS of DOLLARS of our taxpayers monies AGAIN.
The certification is designed to be 100 % voluntary. Nobody is forced to take it. However, if the public and realtors realize that their chances of getting a competent inspector improve by hiring a National Certifcate Holder, I think it would make sense to apply for certification. If governments decide to license us and make it mandatory, that's beyond my sphere of influence.

I for one say, let the private Market place dictate our future. They will do it much quicker, and for a whole lot less money. If your a lousy inspector you'll be out of business real quick, one way or the other.(either no business, or they'll sue you for everthing youv'e got) If your a good inspector, you'll flourish and be in business for as many years as you want.
I guess we'll have to disagree on that. The TIPR program is proving that there are too many people doing inspections who shouldn't be doing them and that reflects on all of us and does a disservice to the public.

Did I understand you correctly, that the gov't has already thrown a million dollars towards this certification....... I guess that supports my GUN REGISTRY theory. No disrespect directed to you personally Bill, This is just my personal feelings to wards a gov't backed/one association, rule and cure the worlds problems type of idea. I don't think it will work, I don't think the courts will back the intrusion into already practicing home inspectors life styles. It's just another form of dictatorship to an association who themselves got into the game in its infancy and intends on sneaking in before most of even know whats happening or going on. If they think it's warming up now, see what happens when all of a sudden every home inspector across the country gets a letter stating they have to comply to this new law that most had little to do with or maybe haven't even heard of yet.
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You are entitled to your opinion, but I totally disagree with you. However, I am not here to debate, so leave it at that.
Bill Mullen

[rwand1]

Bill said:
The certification is designed to be 100 % voluntary. Nobody is forced to take it. However, if the public and realtors realize that their chances of getting a competent inspector improve by hiring a National Certifcate Holder, I think it would make sense to apply for certification. If governments decide to license us and make it mandatory, that's beyond my sphere of influence.

I don't think the above opinion would apply to someone in Oahi who is an RHI. I feel that Oahi has a very good system. The National Cert. for an OAHI member is really irrelevent, it can't supercede RHI in Ontario. I think this is a misconception by many in OAHI.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. The TIPR program is proving that there are too many people doing inspections who shouldn't be doing them and that reflects on all of us and does a disservice to the public.

But that is what OAHI is suppose to be doing with its members ensuring they are competent. Obviously its not. Many in OAHI who are reviewed via TIPR and fail because they are lousy or shouldn't be inspecting can go right back to doing what they are doing in Oahi because they are members of OAHI. Certification does not weed out bad inspectors who already belong to an association. Whats wrong with this picture folks? Think about it.