The Power-Pipe For Homes

[Charles R. N. Crooker]

Well finally seen one in action, check it out at http://www.renewability.com/powerpipe.htm

[sradabaugh]

I don't know much about these systems,but I can't imagine getting much heat from a drain pipe. I would guess that much of the effectiveness comes from the localized savings of energy that is apparent in the water heater. Do they have any information on whole house energy consumption with these in place?
My concern is that with much exposed copper surface area, the majority of the heating is coming from the cold water inside these lines absorbing heat from the conditioned space of the house and not so much from the drains. this would lead to an increase in the amount of energy consumed by the heating device of the home. Besides if one were going to install these wouldn't it be more effective to place the wraps around horizontal sections of pipe(where the heated water is in most direct contact with the inner pipe surface) rather than vertical sections (where a lot of the water is free falling through the lumen of the drain?

JMHO

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by sradabaugh

My concern is that with much exposed copper surface area, the majority of the heating is coming from the cold water inside these lines absorbing heat from the conditioned space of the house and not so much from the drains. this would lead to an increase in the amount of energy consumed by the heating device of the home. Besides if one were going to install these wouldn't it be more effective to place the wraps around horizontal sections of pipe(where the heated water is in most direct contact with the inner pipe surface) rather than vertical sections (where a lot of the water is free falling through the lumen of the drain?

My concern also but one could always insulate the outside of this pipe heat exchanger. As for the horizontal/vertical position, it was my taught also that it would be better installed on the horizontal...but from reading further, it appears that the vertical installation is better...

But the biggest concern is: how long it would take for an average homeowner to recuperate the cost of this gadget (~$1000) before any savings is achieved...

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mgratton

My concern also but one could always insulate the outside of this pipe heat exchanger.
Have looked at claims for these things for 4-5 years now. have never seen one insulated in anyone's promotions and even in a British test setup. Yes, it would be "stealing" heat from the house...this is not heat recovery!


As for the horizontal/vertical position, it was my taught also that it would be better installed on the horizontal...but from reading further, it appears that the vertical installation is better... Yep!

But the biggest concern is: how long it would take for an average homeowner to recuperate the cost of this gadget (~$1000) before any savings is achieved...

A lot of variables....it only recovers heat during showers and leaving the water running when washing your hands (LOL)!!!! In all other hot water draws, the water is held, used and then drained when no cold water is running to the hot water tank.

In a larger new home with 2-3 baths with showers, a lot of excellent drain design will have to be done to get all showers to drain to 1 waste stack or you buy an extra unit or 2. I see a lot of basements finished with a shower for bedrooms located there......how much will it cost to recover that heat?

The best place for these are barracks, dorms, gyms and other commercial, institutional, industrial quick payback locations.

If the price comes down with volume production and there are good subsidies (instead of giving oil companies tax breaks called "depletion allowances"; we drained the oil field ......poor us!), maybe it will become a decent home investment.

Want to save $$$ on hot water, use less.....cold water washes, low flow showerheads, not having more than 1 shower per day (most times I only need a shower every 2-3 days; not that active on HI's).

[Marcel Gratton]

Below copied from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain_water_heat_recovery

Hot water heat recycling

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Drain water heat recovery)
Jump to: navigation, search

A typical unit in the basement of a family home.


Hot water heat recycling (also known as drain water heat recovery, greywater heat recovery, or sometimes shower water heat recovery) is the use of heat exchanger technology to recover and reuse hot water heat from various activities such as dishwashing, clothes washing and especially showers. The technology is used to reduce primary energy consumption for domestic water heating while also reducing greenhouse gases. Standard units save up to 60% of the heat energy that is otherwise lost down the drain when using the shower.
The technology is fully recognized in Canada where the federal ecoENERGY retrofit for homes program offers grants for installations and the EnerGuide for New Houses program has energy savings and energy credit calculations that it uses for new home construction.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mgratton

Below copied from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain_water_heat_recovery

Hot water heat recycling

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Drain water heat recovery)
Jump to: navigation, search

A typical unit in the basement of a family home.


Hot water heat recycling (also known as drain water heat recovery, greywater heat recovery, or sometimes shower water heat recovery) is the use of heat exchanger technology to recover and reuse hot water heat from various activities such as dishwashing, clothes washing and especially showers. The technology is used to reduce primary energy consumption for domestic water heating while also reducing greenhouse gases. Standard units save up to 60% of the heat energy that is otherwise lost down the drain when using the shower.
So how do we reclaim heat from all the other hot water we run down the drain?

The standard units they test are new and clean. They do not have the adhered interior scum layer that a pipe that would have been in use for awhile has. This layer will act as a bit of insulation, lessening heat flow through to the incoming cold water.

When anyone claims "up to", you know that is the best they ever have gotten in testing and is not a long term average!

The technology is fully recognized in Canada where the federal ecoENERGY retrofit for homes program offers grants for installations and the EnerGuide for New Houses program has energy savings and energy credit calculations that it uses for new home construction.

The gent that essentially has my old job in energy here, questions the grant being given for homes for this technology at this time.

[gmortensen]

I've only seen them on new homes that were sold with the eco energy tag. They don't cost anything to run, so I don't see the issue with it.

[sdavies]

If a client wants to install one they can have an energy audit done and recover some of the cost through the EcoEnergy Program..

Steven, CEA
Certified Energy Auditor
NRCAN Licensed.
GO GREEN

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by gmortensen

I've only seen them on new homes that were sold with the eco energy tag. They don't cost anything to run, so I don't see the issue with it.

Did they have an outer insulation layer/system installed so they don't take house heat to warm the water?

[Charles R. N. Crooker]

You might get more info by calling toll free: 1-877-606-5559

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Did they have an outer insulation layer/system installed so they don't take house heat to warm the water?

Brian,

When you flush the toilet, water being discharge down the drain already used heat from the house to reach ambient temperature; this heat exchanger is recuperationg heat that is going down the drain to pre-heat water used to refill the toilet tank. That's if you install the heat exchanger as per manufacturer's recomendations that is to the whole house cold supply and not the WH supply only.

It may even recuperate some of the body heat being flushed in the process...

[Michael Larson]

Over $1000 for the 4' dia. 5 ft. model.

Pricing Page

I don't think I'll be installing one anytime soon.

But I think all the those who insist on being "green" should be forced to buy one to save mother earth.

[Kenneth Lott]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Did they have an outer insulation layer/system installed so they don't take house heat to warm the water?

Even if they take some of the home's heat, at least it is recovered instead of just lost to the outside of the home. So I see 2 benefits. Any heat captured will be radiated right back into the room by the downstream pipes.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mgratton

Brian,

When you flush the toilet, water being discharge down the drain already used heat from the house to reach ambient temperature; this heat exchanger is recuperationg heat that is going down the drain to pre-heat water used to refill the toilet tank. That's if you install the heat exchanger as per manufacturer's recomendations that is to the whole house cold supply and not the WH supply only.

It may even recuperate some of the body heat being flushed in the process...

Marcel:

Remember the flush is one large surge of water with the time of the flush not being fully coincident with the time of the fill........this is what is needed to recover some of this parisitic heat loss from the house.* In this situation, it isn't happening.


* When working as energy analyst for the Gov here, I calculated that the parasitic heat loss just from toilet flushing in a family of 4 with electric heat was about $115/year. Figures I used were: water comes in at 48-50 deg F and leaves at 70F.; electricity was $0.083/kWh. This would be much better now as water saving tanks are not only saving water but a bit more energy also.

[Marcel Gratton]

Brian,

So what you're saying is that this system will not produce a reasonable pay back on investment for residential application?