Second open symposium on home inspector licensing in ontario

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

THE PROFESSIONAL HOME AND PROPERTY INSPECTORS OF ONTARIO
(PHPIO)

IS PROUD TO PRESENT OUR SECOND OPEN SYMPOSIUM ON

HOME INSPECTOR LICENSING IN ONTARIO

Wednesday, September 30th, 2009
1:00 PM to 5:00 PM
Baxtercreek Golf Club
1702 Cedar Valley Rd.
Fraserville, Ontario
(Hwy. 28 South of Peterborough)

PHPIO, leading the way in 'Licensing our Profession'

Moderator: Laura Leyser, Director CREA, Past President OREA

PROPOSED GUEST SPEAKERS:
· Provincial & National Home Inspection industry leaders
· Insurance Providers
· The legal Profession
. Consumer advocates
· Real Estate industry representatives
· Provincial government representatives

All Ontario home inspectors and other interested parties are invited to attend,
'IT"S YOUR FUTURE'

Pre-register at info@phpio.ca Include full name, address, phone number and e-mail address. or call 1-866-785-5355 (Visa & M/C accepted)

Pre-Registration:PHPIO Members $10.00 Non Members $15.00
At The Door: PHPIO Members $20.00 Non Members $25.00

(4 CEC's issued)

For the recap of the London Symposium: Click Here

We look forward to seeing you in Peterborough!

[George A. H. Luck]

YAWN

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by gluck

YAWN

You look tired George, get some sleep!!

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

THE PROFESSIONAL HOME AND PROPERTY INSPECTORS OF ONTARIO
(PHPIO)

IS PROUD TO PRESENT OUR SECOND OPEN SYMPOSIUM ON

HOME INSPECTOR LICENSING IN ONTARIO

Wednesday, September 30th, 2009
1:00 PM to 5:00 PM
Baxtercreek Golf Club
1702 Cedar Valley Rd.
Fraserville, Ontario
(Hwy. 28 South of Peterborough)

PHPIO, leading the way in 'Licensing our Profession'

Moderator: Laura Leyser, Director CREA, Past President OREA

PROPOSED GUEST SPEAKERS:
· Provincial & National Home Inspection industry leaders
· Insurance Providers
· The legal Profession
. Consumer advocates
· Real Estate industry representatives
· Provincial government representatives

All Ontario home inspectors and other interested parties are invited to attend,
'IT"S YOUR FUTURE'

Pre-register at info@phpio.ca Include full name, address, phone number and e-mail address. or call 1-866-785-5355 (Visa & M/C accepted)

Pre-Registration:PHPIO Members $10.00 Non Members $15.00
At The Door: PHPIO Members $20.00 Non Members $25.00

(4 CEC's issued)

For the recap of the London Symposium: Click Here

We look forward to seeing you in Peterborough!

Bump

[George A. H. Luck]

There's a difference between being tired and bored.

[George A. H. Luck]

Remarks from another forum in words more eloquent than mine;


The sincerity of the PHPIO symposium exercise is already in jeopardy, because the assurance from the organizers before the gathering in London that the meeting was not meant to seek support - but only input for possible governmental licensing of home inspectors in Ontario - was already deceiving from the outset.

Only one month later - the self-appointed saviours of our industry are claiming without authorization to be "Leading the way in licensing our Profession." I cannot recall that I have agreed that these guys pursue this matter on my behalf. I actually think that their approach reflects the methods and mentality of union-organizers from times past.

The stupidity to choose an REMAX real estate agent - who happens to temporarily serve as director of CREA - to moderate sensitive meetings about our future is incredible. One can only assume that Ms. Leyser might have indicated her willingness to rally thousands of CREA members willing to support the CAHPI/PHPIO scheme for mandatory licensing of home inspectors.

It is my opinion that the licensing scheme is not meant to benefit anyone - except to revive the slowly dying National Certification Initiative - and/or to create additional demand for educational courses to enrich their providers.

One arrogant CAHPI fanatic and educational course provider told me years ago that being in this business for more than three decades does not mean that I actually know what I am taking about. He predicted then already, that I would most likely be one of the practising old-timers who is in need of additional training before even being allowed to apply to become a National Certificate Holder.

Post Info

[James H. Bushart]

Licensing proponents cloak their motives in a series of lies.

The biggest lie...and you will hear this often....is: "Licensing is inevitable. If you do not sit down and help write the law, you will be stuck with a law you do not want."

This lie works.

Timid home inspectors will stop fighting the law, which is what the proponents need to win. Then, at the table, proponents will pretend to take their input seriously. Sometimes, in a couple of states, they go as far as to actually put one or two ideas from these folks into the law...only to change it, later.

As Texas and North Carolina has recently demonstrated.....getting the law passed is the tough part. Having it changed, later, to reflect the full agenda of the special interests comes very easily once the law is in effect.

The first state to have a licensing law, mandatory E&O was added to the Texas law just this past year....and today their entire home inspection industry is run and monitored by the Texas Real Estate Commission.

The realtors in North Carolina convinced their governor a week ago to force inspectors to use their format in writing reports, including a summary page.

Do not fall for the false mantra. Licensing is not inevitable and, to the contrary, is developing into something that is becoming grossly unethical and harmful to the public.

Home inspectors are already facing, in more than one state, decisions as to whether to provide a professional service to their client OR to comply with their state law. In certain cases, one can no longer do both.

Licensing is not inevitable.

Licensing solves nothing.

[George A. H. Luck]

A good point James. I received this note yesterday from, I believe. a former chair person of the OAHI. Note the invective in Mr. Webb's preamble. A good example of the type of treatment all Ontario inspectors can expect from this group.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting point of view from soneone too ashamed to have a last name and who promotes the least creditable designation in the business which is invented by the one person who truly does lust for power.
George Webb

----- Original Message -----
From: PHPIO
To: 'DOMINION HOME INSPECTORS'
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 9:27 AM
Subject: RE: Licensing Symposium


Good morning George,

Interesting point of view!

There are some simple facts that must be realized: Licensing the home inspection profession throughout Canada is going to happen and is a reality. In Ontario there are two major players, one is lobbying the government to protect their own self interest and PHPIO who is offering open symposiums, discussion and feedback from every home inspector in our province no matter what affiliation he or she may have. Now you may consider this a lust for power, but we consider it fair, open dialogue giving direction to our future.

Regards,
Wayne

Wayne FultonPHPI
Vice President PHPIO

Of course what Mr. Fulton does not point out is that no matter whether you attend his meetings supporting licensing or not, your attendance will be represented as full support. This group of roughly 75 members and one year of history will try any route to place themselves in a position of control. They have been at it for years. Funny how they never give up. Makes one wonder about motives.

[Claude Lawrenson]

George and others do you feel that licensing of home inspectors in Ontario is just a matter of time? Albeit - Perhaps not in the immediate future, but in my opinion within the next 5 years, if not sooner!

Do you feel there is "some" wisdom regardless of association to be at least proactive, rather than reactive? Should we at least be open and talk about it, or just pretend that it will never happen.

Do you feel that there is one association already out there building the pathway to be proclaimed as the "chosen" over all others?

Do you feel that they will include the others? Or will you have to jump through all the requirements - just like those out in BC. It decimated the numbers out there, and those left are busier than ever. Simply no license - unlawful to practice!

If you feel that you have an opinion should it at least be heard?

Are you aware that there are other "forces" at work much larger than all of the home inspectors and their associations in the province?

Regardless of what others may think, those forces can and will have a serious if not real impact on what happens. Whether we want to sit back and complain about it, or be proactive and start building strategic alliances to make certain that home inspectors do have a voice when it happens is all about choice. Nobody is forcing this position - but the appetite is there, and we would be foolish to ignore the signals.

Those that attended the London session had the opportunity to hear about both the positive and negative points of licensing. The panel was comprised of a well rounded field including the mortgage companies, legal side, consumer side and real estate side - just to name a few. I felt that the session was very productive and well mannered by all participants. But a few messages seem to pinpoint that "home inspectors" need to consider their options, sooner than later.

Let's face it, lessons have been learned in BC, perhaps for some the hard way. Alberta seems to be positioning itself to consider the licensing issue also. Not to forget that it has continued with interest in other areas too!

As Wayne noted, there is a huge difference between the open meetings, rather than the closed door sessions held by others. What was most interesting was how the London session dealt with licensing rather than getting down and dirty about petty association politics.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by clawrenson

Should we at least be open and talk about it, or just pretend that it will never happen.

When the topics are death and taxes, your limited alternatives would apply.

But if you are talking about home inspection licensing, the gang rape of a loved one, or the hostile takeover of your country by another.....there is a third alternative. Putting up a fight to stop it.

[George A. H. Luck]

George and others do you feel that licensing of home inspectors in Ontario is just a matter of time? Albeit - Perhaps not in the immediate future, but in my opinion within the next 5 years, if not sooner!

Claude, the fallacy of your premise is that licensing is inevitable. You were told that there is no popular demand either inside or outside the industry for it and that until there is the government is just not interested. All we see here is an attempt by PHPIO to create the illusion of a demand.

Do you feel there is "some" wisdom regardless of association to be at least proactive, rather than reactive? Should we at least be open and talk about it, or just pretend that it will never happen.

The problem here is that we see more than just 'talk'. We see one organization, populated by the same old faces, trying to position itself so that if licensing ever comes to Ontario, those faces will be preeminent in it's organization.

Do you feel that there is one association already out there building the pathway to be proclaimed as the "chosen" over all others?

There are several associations trying to seize the high ground with the hopes of ending up in the proverbial 'driver's seat'. There is no altruism in the industry at that level.

Do you feel that they will include the others? Or will you have to jump through all the requirements - just like those out in BC. It decimated the numbers out there, and those left are busier than ever. Simply no license - unlawful to practice!

The B.C. situation was driven by CAHPI. in the hopes that they would be left in charge. The BC government instituted a disaster because of that input. Now in Ontario we see yet another attempt by members / supporters of CAHPI trying to institute the same take-over.

If you feel that you have an opinion should it at least be heard?

Yes every opinion should be heard. But, as I predicted, those who attended the last symposium and did not support licensing had their attendance represented as support for PHPIO and their drive to assume control of the issue.

Are you aware that there are other "forces" at work much larger than all of the home inspectors and their associations in the province?

You mean that there IS a God??!!!

Regardless of what others may think, those forces can and will have a serious if not real impact on what happens. Whether we want to sit back and complain about it, or be proactive and start building strategic alliances to make certain that home inspectors do have a voice when it happens is all about choice. Nobody is forcing this position - but the appetite is there, and we would be foolish to ignore the signals.

And that is "The BIG LIE". There is no drive toward licensing in Ontario except in the hallowed halls of PHPIO and CAHPI. The government has said that clearly. These organizations wish to create the illusion of a demand, but when push comes to shove the statistics do not support the contention that there is a need. The data does not support the conclusion.

Those that attended the London session had the opportunity to hear about both the positive and negative points of licensing. The panel was comprised of a well rounded field including the mortgage companies, legal side, consumer side and real estate side - just to name a few. I felt that the session was very productive and well mannered by all participants. But a few messages seem to pinpoint that "home inspectors" need to consider their options, sooner than later.

Perhaps the most dangerous thing that PHPIO did was to include anyone from the Real Estate industry. Realtors should not be involved in ANY decision making that affects the future of the home inspection industry. It is called ' conflict of interest'. So what we have here is PHPIO attempting to purchase credibility with the Real Estate Industry by selling out our futures to Realtors who wish to control us. There are several examples of this happening in the United States and their unhappy results are there for all to see.

Let's face it, lessons have been learned in BC, perhaps for some the hard way. Alberta seems to be positioning itself to consider the licensing issue also. Not to forget that it has continued with interest in other areas too!

"Alberta seems to be positioning itself to consider the licensing issue also." Claude, this is a pipe dream and you know it. You cannot say that Alberta is going to entertain licensing so Ontario must too. Especially when Alberta has been quite clear about that possibility.

As Wayne noted, there is a huge difference between the open meetings, rather than the closed door sessions held by others. What was most interesting was how the London session dealt with licensing rather than getting down and dirty about petty association politics.

NO, what is most interesting is that so few attended and that the attendance of all, regardless of their stand on licensing was represented as support for it. That is why all inspectors should think long and hard before attending this next symposium. On top of openness, and free expression of ideas we need honesty not 'spin'.


Cheers, Claude Lawrenson NACHI03121515

[Claude Lawrenson]

Thank you at least you have noted your points.

On the other side perhaps the message was missed, and the real problems were downplayed in the minds that choose to face the facts brought out by the presenters.

I also believe in choice, but given the fact that other forces are at work the opportunity to band together, privide an open forum and have voice, in my mind is at least a counteraction. If home inspectors are so apethetic to want to believe that even if licensing is not the point than perhaps "regulation" will fit the bill!

As some may claim if its not broken why fix it? The reality is like it or not, other professionals clearly indicated there are problems, and why is the "sector" not trying to fix it. At what point does the need to fix it become legislated.

Once again call it what you want - but its up to all home inspectors to find that common ground, or else some will still be left out.

BTW: CAHPI was not the only major player in BC, just look at ASTTBC - do you really think they did not have a part? To me the BC licensing made it perfectly clear that those with a high enough certification process received recognition, while others fell by their own weakness. BC set the precedent and others considering such regulation are watching.

[James H. Bushart]

There is one party that needs to be "left out" and that is the group of people struggling to create the illusion that licensing is necessary (there is no demonstrated need) and inevitable (it is not).

For those who suffer from such delusions that they must have a license in order to be a "professional"....let them seek elsewhere for their fulfillment.

Businessmen who want to control their own businesses, and who feel capable in doing so, do not need a government entity to show them the way.

[George A. H. Luck]

"As some may claim if its not broken why fix it? The reality is like it or not, other professionals clearly indicated there are problems, and why is the "sector" not trying to fix it. At what point does the need to fix it become legislated."

Claude, the message from the government is that until there is a popularly expressed desire for licensing they are not interested. These symposiums are little more than fishing trips; trying to manufacture a desire for licensure.

Who are these mysterious 'dark forces' working behind the scenes? If you really believe is full involvement and disclosure then tell us.

[Gerry Pallotta]

Why are the symposiums being held in small towns/cities when the majority of home inspectors are in the GTA? If you want a true picture of what H.I.'s feel about licencing hold one in the GTA. and go from there.