Thermal cameras ?

[relliott]

Certification classes soon!

Please watch future posts for time and date.

Do not get left behind.

If you are not using this tool you are not doing the job.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

William -

You're right on. I've never had a problem saying "Its broke and needs fixing".

What I've always been concerned about is what I call an ALARMIST - not what a realtor considers an alarmist, BUT what I personally would consider an ALARMIST. AND to me personally that can get into a lot of the ...... MAYBE's

A great amount of the MAYBE's with the IR in my opinion - so far, put us out into the twilight zone of raising more questions than we answer. That has never been, and will never will be my personal inspection style.

I can see its use as an investigative tool - but with further evaluation much of the time to confirm or deny the results.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by wdevries

Rudolf
Unfortunatly the "visual" you refer to has creeped into the year 2000 and has along the way fallen into a technical rhelm where as "Professional Property Inspectors" it is becoming expected that we stay technically advanced to preform our basic duties with proper, professional equpiment.
This means that a flashlight and screwdriver are no longer being considered as acceptable, one must now become more advanced to "PROVE" our findings as litigation is always on the backstep.
I have been asked to provide proof of pictures of my moisture meter showing moisture in a basement, why?? the sellers said it didnt exsist, I did happen to have one and the thing was dropped and sellers concided and did the requested repairs.
Why I have no idea but this is what seems to be the way it is going, technology allows more information so we are having to provide this information, the web provides even more information, Mike Holmes himself states, Do not hire an inspector that is not using IR. , he is considered Canadas most trusted Contractor .
AH!! TV, the unreal staged deliverer of "the truth"; can make anyone look better than they are. On a private MB, not run or controlled by Mike or the show's production company, it was quite interesting when anyone said anything against Mr. Holmes....just was not tolerated.

After one program where he was not "hitting the nail on the head" in finding a moisture problem by having pro's in with IR and, yes, even X-ray equipment, they started jackhammering up a concrete floor only to have, Sean, one of the workers say "this doesn't look like the way to go" or something to that effect!! This gaff showed up on the MB by Sat/Sun with some of the most knowledgeable and popular posters commenting.....by Monday the thread was locked.....no more posting!!!

With a lot of the general public and contractors/subs without any building science, IAQ, HRV knowledge, etc posting their solutions to other homeowners problems, I brought this info to the boards and directed folks to where they could read and learn it themselves.....even that created a bit of a whiner's backlash from some......"It takes too long to read that stuff!!". About 5 weeks or so after I joined the boards, I turned up in the top 5 posters when a board member conducted a "straw poll" on the who the top posters were.

About a week later, the top poster, a narcissictic, old, know-it-all crank posted some totally erroneous/scare mongering info: "Don't use cellulose insulation, the chemicals will make you sick or kill you!!" and "One fiber of asbestos will give you cancer!!" I got some info together and proved his info was way off base and he blew up at me, calling names, etc. I complained to the moderator, who knew the top poster (Mr. Holmes developed a bit of a cult around him) and they took his side because I took the opportunity to "make him look bad". So after that the mods were out to get me and locked me out for complaining that they were biased and showed favouritism.

Over the next 2-3 months, I got back on under 3 different aliases, all with "home" in them. After a week or two they'd start to realize that the info coming from this new poster seemed in depth and included building science...trace it to my IP address and lock me out again until I went to another computer and signed back in!!

Sooner or later you will be forced to step up or step out, and statements like Mike's is why.

Hopefully, you won't make statements like Mike as he was only scratching the surface on some of these items. It has been said by some that he is not a licensed carpenter and shows it.......since when is holding a level in the vertical/plumb postion getting it "level"!!! Or, in a earlier program, "This should've been built to medium code". Where do I find this medium code, Mike?? And to think that an HI chapter paid this man $20,000 to speak for one day when they hosted the AGM!!!

Mike was in the right place at the right time and became a TV personality....plain and simple....quite a few on these boards could do a better job!! A friend was given a copy of his book for Xmas a couple years ago. I borrowed it and had to stop reading it since, if I continued, I'd have to write a long letter about some concepts he was fumbling with!!

[George A. H. Luck]

Holmes is an entertainer and that is all. Anyone who relies on him for help making important decisions about their homes have fools for tenants. Sadly, it is the same type of people who rely on the environs of Hollywood to tell them how to vote!
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[George A. H. Luck]

HI BILL;

Hi George;
As for publicity why not, you did when you went computerized reporting it was a new hype and helped to deliver a more superior product. THAT WAS ONE OF MY POINTS WAY BACK WHEN. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE PROMOTIONAL POSSIBILITIES OF I.R.
If IR can do the same and can help seperate some inspectors as " Cutting Edge" then why not. WHY NOT, INDEED!

2) As for liability, there may be a possibility if the inspector is not properly trained in 1) Use 2) being able to understand what is shown 3) properly being able to interpret the findings. With training and stick time the possibility of liability drops. IN SOME CIRCLES THE POINT IS MADE THAT BY USING TOOLS THAT GIVE YOU A 'VIEW' THAT EXCEEDS THAT OF A VISUAL INSPECTION YOU ARE PLACING YOURSELF IN JEOPARDY BY IMPLYING THAT YOUR INSPECTION IS MORE DETAILED AND THEN THE CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS ARE JUSTIFIABLY GREATER AS ARE YOUR LIABILITIES.
3) Maybe more confirmation then a moisture meter and then the ability to prove your findings with a photo, this in my opinion would reduce liability.
UNFORTUNATELY THE 'PROOF' IS STILL JUST AN INTERPRETATION OF A PHOTOGRAPH. IN THE CASE OF THE MOISTURE METER THE SENSOR HAS ACTUALLY TOUCHED THE SUBJECT AND THE INSPECTOR IS NOT TRYING TO ARRIVE AT CONCLUSIONS BASED ON INFORMATION FROM A PHOTOGRAPH.
4) No it is another tool that aids the HI in inspecting the property. As for E&O I have asked my carrier and they have no problem with it. I HAVE A CALL IN TO MINE TO BE SURE!
As for sop a moisture meter could technically be considered exceeding the SOP. I'M NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE. MOISTURE METERS ARE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE HOME OWNER AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. THEIR USE REQUIRES THAT THEY ACTUALLY TOUCH THE SUBJECT AND THEIR FINDINGS REQUIRE ONLY THE ABILITY TO READ. I.R. CAMERAS DO NOT FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY.

Your a star now, holy crap when did this happen, your fina;lly gonna give that fella Mike a run for his money? I HAVE HEARD THAT HE IS WATCHING HIS BACK ! Well Kudo's to your George, you'll have to show me the movie when your ready, I'd like to see it. IT IS JUST A COLLECTION OF VIDEOS SHOWING ME DOING REPAIRS AND MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES AND SHOWING HOW TO USE SOME SIMPLE TOOLS AND PRODUCTS. NOTHING FANCY ( DON'T TELL MIKE!)
Billy
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[James H. Bushart]

I have to admit something about myself that is not all flattering, but it is something that others may have in common with me.

If I were to go out today and discover a tool that perfected my reports, reduced my liability, and made me the busiest inspector in St. Louis.....I would not tell any of you about it.

The last thing I would want to do is suggest to you that my tool should be in the SOP and made a standard for everyone to follow. That would be absolutely nuts.

On the other hand, if I were to go out and spend $5K to $10K on a tool that might....every fourth house....show me some moisture before I found it through some other means, and I was wanting to feel like I made a good deal, I would find a lot of comfort in knowing that a whole bunch of other guys did the same thing.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I have to admit something about myself that is not all flattering, but it is something that others may have in common with me.

If I were to go out today and discover a tool that perfected my reports, reduced my liability, and made me the busiest inspector in St. Louis.....I would not tell any of you about it.

The last thing I would want to do is suggest to you that my tool should be in the SOP and made a standard for everyone to follow. That would be absolutely nuts.

On the other hand, if I were to go out and spend $5K to $10K on a tool that might....every fourth house....show me some moisture before I found it through some other means, and I was wanting to feel like I made a good deal, I would find a lot of comfort in knowing that a whole bunch of other guys did the same thing.

Why did you say that you are going to buy an IR camera if there is not a
real benefit? Surely you are smarter than all of us, to fall for all that ol' IR hype?

[jbettencourt]

Face facts even with all this arguing between inspectors there is only one person that will decide if this technology becomes common place in the industry and that is the CONSUMER. Nobody is going to pay that much for a tool unless it will make them money. Will it happen ? probably but I don't have a crystal ball. If you are afraid of liability you got into the wrong business, hell getting up in the morning is a liability! I do not own a thermal cam yet but I am learning everything I can about the technology because the business that does not keep up and informed about the new developments in it's industry is the business about to die( it does have capabilities to allow you to expand your business out of home inspections). I am not saying you must buy it but do not discount it as a passing fad, somebody mentioned 8-track, well they said Rock and Roll would never last, they said it was impossible to ever have a computer in a household( I have 3 in my house at the moment, how many do you have?) Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are 2 people happy bout that. Learn and understand, don't just discredit and say it will never happen.

[George A. H. Luck]

"I am not saying you must buy it but do not discount it as a passing fad, somebody mentioned 8-track, well they said Rock and Roll would never last, they said it was impossible to ever have a computer in a household( I have 3 in my house at the moment, how many do you have?) Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are 2 people happy bout that. Learn and understand, don't just discredit and say it will never happen."

It was also said that we would have flying cars, hotels in orbit and I would weigh 20 pounds less . Sadly none of the above happened. I don't think that anyone is discounting I.R. or it's possibilities. However, I for one, am looking for some solid reasons to fork out $5000. for the hardware now instead of sometime in the future. ( must go and check out the contents of the refrigerator now )
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[Claude Lawrenson]

And a few more points of view:
http://activerain.com/blogsview/1254...l-Imaging-What

[William R. DeVries, CMHI]

Originally Posted by dbowers

William -

You're right on. I've never had a problem saying "Its broke and needs fixing".

What I've always been concerned about is what I call an ALARMIST - not what a realtor considers an alarmist, BUT what I personally would consider an ALARMIST. AND to me personally that can get into a lot of the ...... MAYBE's

A great amount of the MAYBE's with the IR in my opinion - so far, put us out into the twilight zone of raising more questions than we answer. That has never been, and will never will be my personal inspection style.

I can see its use as an investigative tool - but with further evaluation much of the time to confirm or deny the results.

Dan;
you are right but if you think about it, we do need these alarmist's as well.
They help confirm to the agents that some of us like yourself try to work out the why angle as well and then make a sound decision to call in a specialist.
confirmation regardless of how it's obtained is required, and once you are sure yourself then defer it.
The maybes 's are there but with experience, knowledge and of course stick time they become less and less. I learn something new every time I pick it up and use it, forever checking things out, so I know proper from something is amiss, learning curve is really a straight line and it never stops, you keep learning, IR or not

[William R. DeVries, CMHI]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Hopefully, you won't make statements like Mike as he was only scratching the surface on some of these items. It has been said by some that he is not a licensed carpenter and shows it.......since when is holding a level in the vertical/plumb postion getting it "level"!!! Or, in a earlier program, "This should've been built to medium code". Where do I find this medium code, Mike?? And to think that an HI chapter paid this man $20,000 to speak for one day when they hosted the AGM!!!

Mike was in the right place at the right time and became a TV personality....plain and simple....quite a few on these boards could do a better job!! A friend was given a copy of his book for Xmas a couple years ago. I borrowed it and had to stop reading it since, if I continued, I'd have to write a long letter about some concepts he was fumbling with!!

Brian I agree and Mike has bighead syndrome, As Joe Farsetta posted once a while back for him to try an inspection with our current SOP or any SOP for that matter, I have seen him handle trowels wrong, tell his workers improper mudding techniques, and my FAV is when he says this is not to code in a 40+ year old house, OBC was invoked in 1975, so yes anything built prior was not to code as it didn't exsist here. BUT you would never hear that from him lmao.
The problem is the media hype that follows this fella is increadable, after his book was out, I had people calling and asking the questions right from jis book, I almost asked one guy if he liked his book.
His style and antics will shape a bit of this industry just from media hype and the sheeple, unfortunate as that may be.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mlarson

You forgot the to list yourself.

But Mike, I never joined and then got turfed!! I'll have my own category defined in another year or so!!

[William R. DeVries, CMHI]

[quote=gluck]HI BILL;
2) As for liability, there may be a possibility if the inspector is not properly trained in 1) Use 2) being able to understand what is shown 3) properly being able to interpret the findings. With training and stick time the possibility of liability drops. IN SOME CIRCLES THE POINT IS MADE THAT BY USING TOOLS THAT GIVE YOU A 'VIEW' THAT EXCEEDS THAT OF A VISUAL INSPECTION YOU ARE PLACING YOURSELF IN JEOPARDY BY IMPLYING THAT YOUR INSPECTION IS MORE DETAILED AND THEN THE CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS ARE JUSTIFIABLY GREATER AS ARE YOUR LIABILITIES.
That might be but if you promise to deliver a thorough inspection and miss something you are liable, the IR itself cannot put you in a more liabilty, the lack of knowledge will or could for sure, being confident in my inspection my abilitys and methods in my opinion lesson my liability, with my tools and ways to confirm moisture intrusion, air leaks, lack of insulation with IR can be backed up via photograph.
3) Maybe more confirmation then a moisture meter and then the ability to prove your findings with a photo, this in my opinion would reduce liability.
UNFORTUNATELY THE 'PROOF' IS STILL JUST AN INTERPRETATION OF A PHOTOGRAPH. IN THE CASE OF THE MOISTURE METER THE SENSOR HAS ACTUALLY TOUCHED THE SUBJECT AND THE INSPECTOR IS NOT TRYING TO ARRIVE AT CONCLUSIONS BASED ON INFORMATION FROM A PHOTOGRAPH.
And yes the photo can be described and shown to hold value in a report, and justify why a specialist was needed, or how it shows whatever is in the pic
4) No it is another tool that aids the HI in inspecting the property. As for E&O I have asked my carrier and they have no problem with it. I HAVE A CALL IN TO MINE TO BE SURE!
As for sop a moisture meter could technically be considered exceeding the SOP. I'M NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE. MOISTURE METERS ARE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE HOME OWNER AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. THEIR USE REQUIRES THAT THEY ACTUALLY TOUCH THE SUBJECT AND THEIR FINDINGS REQUIRE ONLY THE ABILITY TO READ. I.R. CAMERAS DO NOT FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY.
A meter still requires interperatation and will not be point specfic as to where moisture is except that the medium is moist, you still need to be able to undersatand how, why, where. that would be a more liable situation because you are still guessing if the wall is finished and cannot see the foundation wall.
The IR will aid in this as it allows me to see the more concentrated areas to help asses where, and how a little more. IMHO

Your a star now, holy crap when did this happen, your fina;lly gonna give that fella Mike a run for his money? I HAVE HEARD THAT HE IS WATCHING HIS BACK ! Well Kudo's to your George, you'll have to show me the movie when your ready, I'd like to see it. IT IS JUST A COLLECTION OF VIDEOS SHOWING ME DOING REPAIRS AND MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES AND SHOWING HOW TO USE SOME SIMPLE TOOLS AND PRODUCTS. NOTHING FANCY ( DON'T TELL MIKE)
MuM's the word
Billy

[William R. DeVries, CMHI]

Originally Posted by gluck

"I am not saying you must buy it but do not discount it as a passing fad, somebody mentioned 8-track, well they said Rock and Roll would never last, they said it was impossible to ever have a computer in a household( I have 3 in my house at the moment, how many do you have?) Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are 2 people happy bout that. Learn and understand, don't just discredit and say it will never happen."

It was also said that we would have flying cars, hotels in orbit and I would weigh 20 pounds less . Sadly none of the above happened. I don't think that anyone is discounting I.R. or it's possibilities. However, I for one, am looking for some solid reasons to fork out $5000. for the hardware now instead of sometime in the future. ( must go and check out the contents of the refrigerator now )
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Err we do George, they call them planes, and it's the space station, Oh and thats why we have big screen tv's with W I D E S C R E E N so we can watch your DVD
ps I know i'm a S h y t
Coffee is on me