Thermal cameras ?

[bdoles2]

Awww, someone keeps "pooping" in Mr. Busharts sandbox.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by bdoles2

Awww, someone keeps "pooping" in Mr. Busharts sandbox.

But Brian, when you keep seeing claims like the following, it makes you wonder if we need to call in some government agency that deals with fraudulent advertising. I have only looked at 5-6 websites advertising IR but find that there is a tendency to embellish or, as I say, "over embellish"- lying in my books- in the ads.This is from a member's website:

"This remarkable technology allows us the ability to actually observe what’s going on behind those finished walls and ceilings of your existing or prospective home."

So we're seeing through walls again!! CRAP! CRAP! CRAP!

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

But Brian, when you keep seeing claims like the following, it makes you wonder if we need to call in some government agency that deals with fraudulent advertising. I have only looked at 5-6 websites advertising IR but find that there is a tendency to embellish or, as I say, "over embellish"- lying in my books- in the ads.This is from a member's website:

"This remarkable technology allows us the ability to actually observe what’s going on behind those finished walls and ceilings of your existing or prospective home."

So we're seeing through walls again!! CRAP! CRAP! CRAP!

Do you see that on my website?? I'm sure you don't. If you do, tell me and it will be removed.

I cannot and will not worry about how someone else advertises their business. Do their lies kill my business? Nope. So I don't really care what they say in their advertisements.

When a consumer calls me and asks me about infrared, I explain it to them. There's no magic wand, there's no x-ray vision. It's use is very much dependent on temperature.

I love you guys that find the time to police the entire world for faulty advertisements - I think it's cute your trying to save the world, one home inspector website at a time. Those guys that hand out untrue information in their advertisements don't stick around very long.

[Claude Lawrenson]

What adds confusion to the mix is what is a home inspection completed to the SOP? To that I say why do we need to change the SOP? Some here have suggested such a change by suggesting that the IR scan is part of the package. While others indicate that it may raise "risk".

What does "thermal imaging" have to do with offering additional services that exceed the SOP? In my opinion it is a distinct and separate consulting service that brings the inspector closer to line of performing an "exhaustive inspection". In the eyes of the legal system that can open the issue of the inspector claiming to follow the SOP. It's your choice, but it should not be impacting those that stick to the SOP.

Now check what "exhaustive" inspection implies.

Save your money on the IR camera unless you're going to do specialized consulting with it. Then charge an arm and a leg for your specialized knowledge & tools.

I see a definite use for the IR camera, but as a separate consulting service. That's where I draw the line.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by clawrenson

What adds confusion to the mix is what is a home inspection completed to the SOP? To that I say why do we need to change the SOP? Some here have suggested such a change by suggesting that the IR scan is part of the package. While others indicate that it may raise "risk".

What does "thermal imaging" have to do with offering additional services that exceed the SOP? In my opinion it is a distinct and separate consulting service that brings the inspector closer to line of performing an "exhaustive inspection". In the eyes of the legal system that can open the issue of the inspector claiming to follow the SOP. It's your choice, but it should not be impacting those that stick to the SOP.

Now check what "exhaustive" inspection implies.

Save your money on the IR camera unless you're going to do specialized consulting with it. Then charge an arm and a leg for your specialized knowledge & tools.

I see a definite use for the IR camera, but as a separate consulting service. That's where I draw the line.

Right on.

[George A. H. Luck]

So, after struggling through eight pages this is what I got;

1 - I.R. is more of a promotional tool than an actual benefit to the inspector.

2 - I.R. may ( probably does) expose the inspector to additional liability.

3 - I.R. performs as a 'confirmation' of what a visual inspection reveals.

4 - I.R. may exceed the S.O.P. and place our E + O insurance in jeopardy.

I was the first in my area to go completely computerized. I was one of the first ( if not the first) to offer digital pictures in my area. I believe that I am the first in my area to offer a DVD of home maintenance tips and procedures with me as the S*T*A*R* ( I am ready for my close up now Mr. Demille ). I am thinking about I.R. but cannot find a reason other than it's promotional possibilities to include this in my offerings.

I am still waiting.
</IMG></IMG>

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

[

quote=gluck]So, after struggling through eight pages this is what I got;

1 - I.R. is more of a promotional tool than an actual benefit to the inspector.

2 - I.R. may ( probably does) expose the inspector to additional liability.

3 - I.R. performs as a 'confirmation' of what a visual inspection reveals.

4 - I.R. may exceed the S.O.P. and place our E + O insurance in jeopardy.

I was the first in my area to go completely computerized. I was one of the first ( if not the first) to offer digital pictures in my area. I believe that I am the first in my area to offer a DVD of home maintenance tips and procedures with me as the S*T*A*R* ( I am ready for my close up now Mr. Demille ). I am thinking about I.R. but cannot find a reason other than it's promotional possibilities to include this in my offerings.

I am still waiting.

George,

Wrong on 1,2 and 3 my friend.

#1

If the camera is used as a promotional tool in conjunction with its abilities, I see nothing wrong with that. My camera and courses have/will cost me $20K by the end of this year, I feel entitled to use it as a marketing tool as well as the best inspection tool in my bag.

#2 IMO It actually reduces my liability

#3
Its the other way around my friend!
I confirm what the camera can see with a moisture meter or a visual inspection or further evaluation that could include a destructive or intrusive inspection if warranted. Most anomalies that are found are not visible with the naked eye or with a visual inspection.

Bottom line IMO, The old timers in this Industry will discount this technology as a usefull tool, but trust me, all the new guys will be using it, and will be better inspectors for it! The old timers are creatures of habit and are set in their stone age inspection methods, its time to move forward [get on board] and realize that this technology is here to stay.

That's all I have to say on this topic.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

I'm kinda curious about something. My question is not about the equipment, etc but about what clients do with the results.

For example: Look at the photos in post #47 and in #77 and tell me after you discover this condition for your clients what do you or they do with it.

I'm on an inspection that the buyer, agent and sometimes seller is attending. All of whom have allocated 2-3 hrs for this 2500 sf house. This condition shows up in my IR scan. Looks like there has been moisture. It doesn't look or feel wet today, but there it is. Now what??

Am I recommending a contractor tear into the wall, floor, or ceiling to check out something that MIGHT still be a problem? Am I recommending they tear out the existing materials that got wet at some point in time, so they don't develop mold? What are you doing next?

In this slow housing market - USA - I can see us raising a whole lot of questions we have no answer or solution for. That translates into killing a whole lot of deals for houses that have been on the market 6-10 months. AND that translates out to MANY very angry and vindicative people.

In many areas that I work in, I can see a lot of commissioned sales people not just not using you - BUT - bending over backwards to make sure that nobody they know uses you. I can see very vindicative sellers also??

In our SLOW market I'm running into situations like the seller suing the inspector for probing wood rot and putting his fingers through the wood (holes); I just did an inspection on a house and found cracked flue tiles in the chimney - seller and listing agents response was they'd install a gas log set for the buyer but had no intention of spending money to repair or reline the chimney. When the buyer said, but you'll have to disclose it to the next buyer if you don't deal with me - they said "no we won't, we'll just wait and see if the next buyer finds it like your inspector did".

Our market is bringing out VERY aggressive and nasty traits in many people

Feed back please............

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by dbowers

For example: Look at the photos in post #47 and in #77 and tell me after you discover this condition for your clients what do you or they do with it.

You get the same results as defects you find without the camera. 50% of the defects never get fixed. It's not about what get's fixed and what doesn't, it's all about bringing awareness to your customer.

i.e.
They are aware that there is missing insulation and energy bills may be more each month.
They are aware that the TPR valve is plumbed incorrectly and it has the potential for being fatal.

It's up to them (buyers/sellers) to correct the problems.

[dharris]

DAN!
I'm a little surprised at your comments.
Maybe, hopefully, I'm misreading into them.
Are you suggesting we should limit options that we offer our customers, due to what a seller or real estate salesperson may do to us with our findings?

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

[quote]

Originally Posted by dbowers

I'm kinda curious about something. My question is not about the equipment, etc but about what clients do with the results.

For example: Look at the photos in post #47 and in #77 and tell me after you discover this condition for your clients what do you or they do with it.

Photo- post #47

Clients were advised of the roof leak, I recommended a roofing contractor repair this isolated section of the roof.
What clients do with this or other information I provide for them is not for me to worry about! My job is finished the minute I identify/report the defect, with some exceptions.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

In this slow housing market - USA - I can see us raising a whole lot of questions we have no answer or solution for. That translates into killing a whole lot of deals for houses that have been on the market 6-10 months. AND that translates out to MANY very angry and vindicative people.

Its not your job to worry about the deal, it is to report on the condition of the home. If the agents don't like it...tough *****. My only priority is to my client, making sure they know what they are getting into when they decide to purchase or not.

[David A. Andersen]

JB,

I'm in here checking on last min. important stuff (for which you do not qualify for). You condemn what I "interpret" your posts to be, I have on numerous occasions asked you to support your far fetched claims with real time facts. You have not replied. So, I'm going on vacation and I will give your posts the considerations they are worth....

... picture me in an out house overlooking Mt. Rainier!!!!!!!!!!

If you managed to "produce" so you could accompany me,,, I'd invite you to a "discussion" on site!

I have no place to go, nothing to do,,, maybe I'll think about your BS and ponder why it could in any way be of any importance!

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by dandersen

... picture me in an out house....

Not too hard to do.

"Proof" of what, by the way?

[George A. H. Luck]

MARIO;

George,

Wrong on 1,2 and 3 my friend.

#1

If the camera is used as a promotional tool in conjunction with its abilities, I see nothing wrong with that. My camera and courses have/will cost me $20K by the end of this year, I feel entitled to use it as a marketing tool as well as the best inspection tool in my bag.

I THINK WE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING.

#2 IMO It actually reduces my liability

IN PRELIMINARY TALKS ABOUT THIS TOOL WITH MY LAWYER, I FIND THAT HE DISAGREES WITH YOU TO SOME EXTENT.

#3
Its the other way around my friend!
I confirm what the camera can see with a moisture meter or a visual inspection or further evaluation that could include a destructive or intrusive inspection if warranted. Most anomalies that are found are not visible with the naked eye or with a visual inspection.

"Most anomalies that are found are not visible with the naked eye or with a visual inspection." This statement puts you firmly in my lawyers court. He maintains that this type of inspection exceeds the S.O.P. and puts you well down the slippery slope of which plaintiffs and their lawyers are so fond.

Bottom line IMO, The old timers in this Industry will discount this technology as a usefull tool, but trust me, all the new guys will be using it, and will be better inspectors for it!

How does a new tool, even a digital one, make you a better inspector?

The old timers are creatures of habit and are set in their stone age inspection methods, its time to move forward [get on board] and realize that this technology is here to stay.

I remember them saying the same thing about 8-track tapes too. If you have the ability to accurately forecast which technology is going to relegate us "old timers" to the ash can of history, you are in the wrong business, my friend. You may be right. You may be wrong. I just don't see the market moving one way or the other yet.

That's all I have to say on this topic.

That's too bad Mario. NACHI is supposed to be about sharing knowledge, I thought.