International Association of Certified Home Inspectors

dcook1 · #31 4/19/08, 8:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gromicko

http://www.nachi.org/joefarsettainterview2008.htm

We just landed a worldwide exclusive interview!!! Joe tells all and names names!

And so did Heidi ,,,whats her name!!!!

James H. Bushart · #32 4/19/08, 9:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I don't have a passion for licensing one way or another, but I don't think
the exaggerated claims against it apply in all situations. Some laws are good
and some just create more problems. I have seen some benefits and
think that side of it has it's place.

If you want we can debate next week. I am on my way. Thanks for the offer.
See you on Monday.

It will be fun... and I never get upset or offended.
You can pay with cash, check or CC.

I promise not to make you look bad...

John, you are wonderful, but you are not a debater on the licensing issue.

Reading through your posts, your views are limited to your own experiences in your own state relating to your own experiences with TREC. So often in message board debates, you fall back on your defense that "it's not like that in Texas" or words to that affect.

A debate between you and Mr. Cayhill on the value of the present legislation in Texas would be interesting....until he destroyed you in the second round.

If Nick is going to debate licensing on a national broadcast, IMO, it should be with a Jerry Peck, Jeff Hooper, or other figure who has engaged heavily in the debate and who believe so staunchly in it that they would manipulate events like they did in Florida to overcome a successful resistance of 15 years.

Nick Gromicko · #33 4/19/08, 10:14 AM

I called some of the ASHI guys who have, in the past, put through minimum standard licensing to see if they would debate me, but now that licensing has dumped so many new competitors into their markets, they now agree with me, unfortunately too late for them.

John McKenna · #34 4/19/08, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbushart

John, you are wonderful, but you are not a debater on the licensing issue.

Reading through your posts, your views are limited to your own experiences in your own state relating to your own experiences with TREC. So often in message board debates, you fall back on your defense that "it's not like that in Texas" or words to that affect.

A debate between you and Mr. Cayhill on the value of the present legislation in Texas would be interesting....until he destroyed you in the second round.

If Nick is going to debate licensing on a national broadcast, IMO, it should be with a Jerry Peck, Jeff Hooper, or other figure who has engaged heavily in the debate and who believe so staunchly in it that they would manipulate events like they did in Florida to overcome a successful resistance of 15 years.

I seem to have no problem with dispelling your comment when they pop up.
So don't draw any conclusion before we have the debate.

I would rather see an honest discussion, instead of manipulation.

If the debate against licensing does not bear witness with my experience
then who should I believe... your exaggerations are my own eyes.?

Since I am supposedly so weak on this issue, then no one should be afraid of
what I have to say. I don't posture to be a legendary expert like you, but that
is probably my biggest advantage.

Common sense.

John McKenna · #35 4/19/08, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gromicko

minimum standard licensing

That is the KEY.

If the requirements are too weak, then it's all bad.

If they are strong and real, then that serves some good..IMHO.

John McKenna · #36 4/19/08, 10:23 AM

Is there a hesitation about debating me Nick.?

I never get my feelings hurt and I think it will be fun.

I have enjoyed debating for 35 years.

James H. Bushart · #37 4/19/08, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gromicko

I called some of the ASHI guys who have, in the past, put through minimum standard licensing to see if they would debate me, but now that licensing has dumped so many new competitors into their markets, they now agree with me, unfortunately too late for them.

That's the problem you will find in getting a worthy partner.

You have hybrid home inspectors who only know licensing and have never experienced the freedom of actually running their own businesses without directions from the state, you have those who are pushing legislation not because it is the right thing to do but because they hope to gain a seat on the newly created "licensing board", you have the vendor whose test or class he hopes to mandate through the legislation, or the newbie looking for the license to enhance his credibility.

Who is there to argue licensing...for the sake of licensing? That they worked both ways and prefer the government controls? Where are the old arguments that no one even tries to give with straight faces regarding "consumer protection".

Like you say, they have wised up. Many, too late.

Hey, I think Scott Patterson is still an advocate of licensing. He remains unwise. Give him a call. Tell him to go public...one on one. Open the polls to the public to allow votes as to who won the debate. This can be a Billy Jean King/Bobby Riggs match, all over again.

It can also educate those who do not know of the need to fight licensing in their respective states.

John McKenna · #38 4/19/08, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbushart

That's the problem you will find in getting a worthy partner.

You have hybrid home inspectors who only know licensing and have never experienced the freedom of actually running their own businesses without directions from the state, you have those who are pushing legislation not because it is the right thing to do but because they hope to gain a seat on the newly created "licensing board", you have the vendor whose test or class he hopes to mandate through the legislation, or the newbie looking for the license to enhance his credibility.

Who is there to argue licensing...for the sake of licensing? That they worked both ways and prefer the government controls? Where are the old arguments that no one even tries to give with straight faces regarding "consumer protection".

Like you say, they have wised up. Many, too late.

Hey, I think Scott Patterson is still an advocate of licensing. He remains unwise. Give him a call. Tell him to go public...one on one. Open the polls to the public to allow votes as to who won the debate. This can be a Billy Jean King/Bobby Riggs match, all over again.

It can also educate those who do not know of the need to fight licensing in their respective states.

You also have those who fear the SoP when enforced by law.

They don't mind having it around as a marketing ploy to build confidence in
the eyes of the consumer, but really enjoy the slight of hand of bypassing
it and calling it something else in the process. They fear being held
responsible.

Irresponsibility does not equate to freedom. Stopping negligence is not
bondage. A republic is a nation of law and some laws are actually good
and produce positive results. They do at my house.

I have never seen the SoP hinder a real home inspector. It has never
stopped me from charging more and doing a good job.

Licensing is the enforcement of the SoP, if done correctly. My son is
required to be trained in order to be an inspector and this is a good thing.

Common sense should not be thrown out the window in this discussion.

Weak law is bad law. Strong laws applied properly are good...IMHO.
Just saying you don't want to hear this, does not make the facts go away.

The HI industry is moving away from "Johnny fix it" and if InterNACHI wants
to be in touch with reality, then they need to adjust to the wisdom of
what is in fact happening. Licensing is coming every where, but it needs to be
applied properly to be effective. Most states, in time past, have done it
wrong and thus all the previous problems.

After licensing comes, InterNACHI does not need to be on the outside
chanting that it is ALL wrong. That is too simplistic and will make us look
like idiots in the end.

Texas does not suffer from licensed home inspectors. The TREC SoP have
not kept my prices low. The market place has less inspectors every time
the standards are raised. It is not flooding the market with low grade
inspectors as the standards are raised.

In time past the law was weak and we had all these problems.

Licensing does not keep inspector fees low. Poor communication skills
keep prices low. Nick Gromicko can help fix that, even in licensed states.
I have seen that at my house as well. (CMI has changed the dynamics
of pricing)

I have a feeling that if I am declined the debate invitation, it will not be
because I have nothing worth considering in my comments.

James H. Bushart · #39 4/19/08, 11:52 AM

Members of associations use SOPs.

"Fear" of an SOP is limited in scope, since so few of the 32 states with legislation offer their own. It is hardly relevant in the discussion of the pros and cons of licensing.

Doug Edwards · #40 4/19/08, 12:00 PM

Unfortunately, you are both right in many ways. Licensing in many cases has been foisted upon the HI by legislatures who have not a clue what it is or does and are simply reacting through an emotional response to sometimes a single event. They are more often than not being manipulated and coached by groups or individuals with ulterior motives and who stand to gain the most from new licensing laws (use your imagination). As an observer of TX HI laws I don't even pretend to understand how the Real Estate industry was the logical choice to be in charge of the whole ball of wax. That IMO is like the proverbial Fox in charge of the Hen house but then again I am just suspicious by nature (I was a helo crewman for years and we trust no one or anything anyone tells us). Time and again we have all seen the results of poorly written or enacted HI laws. Most often the rush to get legislation through at any costs has resulted in laws that are contradictory, unenforcible, impossible to accomplish and downright screwed right straight up so badly you can not get a screwdriver on the end of it. Case in point is the FL law. Someone with half a mind and just a modicum of sense can read through it once and see all the glaring problems it creates where none were before. Many issues are unanswered and no one you talk in a position to correct it have any definitive answers as to how they are going to fix it. If licensing is inevitable than it should be good laws that actually do what it is intended to do. In so many cases that has not proven to be true, but by god we got a law controlling those HI bastards. Over and over it has increased the numbers of HI flooding a market, also being exacerbated by HI schools that promise huge fees and overnight success to unsuspecting souls with enough money and time to sit through their 80 hour program. The most disheartening thing is there are many, many HI who are willing accomplices to their own demise. This may be an underlying reason so many never get to the 3 year mark. It would be interesting to know the stats of those who throw in the towel in unlicensed States. I do believe some useful information like that is in the Ohio Study.

John McKenna · #41 4/19/08, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbushart

Members of associations use SOPs.

"Fear" of an SOP is limited in scope, since so few of the 32 states with legislation offer their own. It is hardly relevant in the discussion of the pros and cons of licensing.

The TREC SoP are very close to InterNACHI's SoP.

The lack of a good SoP in most states with licensing is indeed a core problem.

I know you want to leave out the SoP in your discussion. To include it changes
everything.

John McKenna · #42 4/19/08, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dedwards

Unfortunately, you are both right in many ways. Licensing in many cases has been foisted upon the HI by legislatures who have not a clue what it is or does and are simply reacting through an emotional response to sometimes a single event. They are more often than not being manipulated and coached by groups or individuals with ulterior motives and who stand to gain the most from new licensing laws (use your imagination). As an observer of TX HI laws I don't even pretend to understand how the Real Estate industry was the logical choice to be in charge of the whole ball of wax. That IMO is like the proverbial Fox in charge of the Hen house but then again I am just suspicious by nature (I was a helo crewman for years and we trust no one or anything anyone tells us). Time and again we have all seen the results of poorly written or enacted HI laws. Most often the rush to get legislation through at any costs has resulted in laws that are contradictory, unenforcible, impossible to accomplish and downright screwed right straight up so badly you can not get a screwdriver on the end of it. Case in point is the FL law. Someone with half a mind and just a modicum of sense can read through it once and see all the glaring problems it creates where none were before. Many issues are unanswered and no one you talk in a position to correct it have any definitive answers as to how they are going to fix it. If licensing is inevitable than it should be good laws that actually do what it is intended to do. In so many cases that has not proven to be true, but by god we got a law controlling those HI bastards. Over and over it has increased the numbers of HI flooding a market, also being exacerbated by HI schools that promise huge fees and overnight success to unsuspecting souls with enough money and time to sit through their 80 hour program. The most disheartening thing is there are many, many HI who are willing accomplices to their own demise. This may be an underlying reason so many never get to the 3 year mark. It would be interesting to know the stats of those who throw in the towel in unlicensed States. I do believe some useful information like that is in the Ohio Study.

Good post.

I believe the reason most inspectors that go out of business is because of a lack
communication skills, for the most part, regardless of licensing or not.

I think the end product of the TREC SoP being so close to InterNACHI's
SoP (not exact) has helped take away some of the power of the manipulators.

Nothing in this world is perfect (so my comment has holes and all laws
will always have some manipulators behind them). This does not negate
the limited benefits that can still come from good law that is applied properly.

The law cannot stop bad behavior (that comes from within),
but the law can punish it, provide instruction, and put the fear of
gawd in the back of your mind.

Gotta go to an inspection now... I enjoyed all the comments.

James H. Bushart · #43 4/19/08, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

The TREC SoP are very close to InterNACHI's SoP.

The lack of a good SoP in most states with licensing is indeed a core problem.

I know you want to leave out the SoP in your discussion. To include it changes
everything.

To the contrary.

Your amorous attachment to your own SOP limits your vision as you associate it with "licensing". It is all you have ever known and it makes sense that you are comfortable with it.

But those of us who are free from the state's control over our business are allowed to enter into agreements of our own with our customers. If they want something that is contrary to the SOP and are willing to pay for it, an agreement is struck and we do business. You, on the other hand, would be precluded by a state who has made the business decision for you that you must comply with theirs or lose your ability to work.

Again, your comfort zone is understandable. There are people in Iraq who are longing for the security and protection of Sadam Hussein. Democracy scares them.

~~Brian A. MacNeish~~ · #44 4/19/08, 3:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gromicko

I called some of the ASHI guys who have, in the past, put through minimum standard licensing to see if they would debate me, but now that licensing has dumped so many new competitors into their markets, they now agree with me, unfortunately too late for them.

Keep saying it, Nick, You'll some day believe it. Too bad all the newbies (even the 2-3 year 90%er's) tend to believe this crap also.

No licensing in my market, Nick, There's an HI mill here based on a well known HI producing org. In fact the biggest growth in #'s , not quality, is coming from NACHI .......Newbies giving up their hard earned cash!!!!! It's really sad!!!!

Last Friday, my buyer's RE agent mentioned he had a bad experience with a NACHI newbie. The agent, the buyer and the newbie ended up splitting the cost on replacing a missed inspection item.....the newbie would not pay fully for it!!!! So there will be no one in the agent's sizeable brokerage office ever using one of these franchised newbies again for a long while!!! BTW, I had heard about this incident 4-5 weeks before from another agent and then by chance, get the agent involved when the buyer was given free reign to choose her own inspector. This agent no longer recommends any inspectors......PERIOD since he had recommended the NACHI newbie!!!

The 1-2 year wonders that I've seen here have all been NACHI CHI's.......at least 3 in the last 2-3 years have not re-joined and don't hear of them still being in business............expect to see a few more flaming flashes in the next 12-18 months.