IAC2 to develop first ever mold standards.

[Nick Gromicko]

Many thanks to Dr. John Shane and InterNACHI for working with IAC2 to develop the first set of standards for mold.

For more information about Dr. Shane visit: http://www.reliablelab.com/news031406.php

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

It's about time someone did!

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Many thanks to Dr. John Shane and InterNACHI for working with IAC2 to develop the first set of standards for mold.

For more information about Dr. Shane visit: http://www.reliablelab.com/news031406.php

And I had the pleasure of meeting him! Nice guy.

[Harvey L. Gordon]

Nick, what Standards are you speaking about?

Did you mean for IAC2? IAQ/IESO/IAQA and ESA have had Standards for many years.

[Brian E. Kelly]

http://www.cdc.gov/mold/faqs.htm#results

A qualified environmental lab took samples of the mold in my home and gave me the results. Can CDC interpret these results?

Standards for judging what is an acceptable, tolerable, or normal quantity of mold have not been established. If you do decide to pay for environmental sampling for molds, before the work starts, you should ask the consultants who will do the work to establish criteria for interpreting the test results. They should tell you in advance what they will do or what recommendations they will make based on the sampling results. The results of samples taken in your unique situation cannot be interpreted without physical inspection of the contaminated area or without considering the building’s characteristics and the factors that led to the present condition.

[Nick Gromicko]

Harvey, see Brian's post #5, and then mine #1.

[Joe Farsetta]

With all due respect Nick, Dr. Shane may be brilliant but his opinions do not count as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

The EPA and CDC have states that all mold is to be treaated identically. The EPA has advised folks not to waste time and money on testing mold. If you see it or smell it, you have it. If you have it, dont test it; get rid of it.

These are facts, rendered by governmental agencies.

An acceptable level for mold has not been established.

An unacceptable level for mold has not been established.

Degrees of acceptability or unacceptability for molds have not been established. To do this, each species would need to be analyzed and levels extablished. This is a virtual impossibility.

I would NOT want to be in a position of handing a client a slip of paper that says that this or that is acceptable, while this species or that is not. All one needs is for one client to get sick. In the age of mold hysteria, the deck is already stacked against us.

[phinsperger]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

I would NOT want to be in a position of handing a client a slip of paper that says that this or that is acceptable, while this species or that is not. All one needs is for one client to get sick. In the age of mold hysteria, the deck is already stacked against us.

I would not hand a client a slip of paper that indicates what is acceptable. It's up to them to decide what is acceptable for them. What they need from us working with the labs is part of the information (ie. whats present in the house) to help them make an informed decision for their level of acceptability. Other parts of the information may come from their doctor, allergy or other specialists.

[Scott Patterson]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

With all due respect Nick, Dr. Shane may be brilliant but his opinions do not count as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

The EPA and CDC have states that all mold is to be treaated identically. The EPA has advised folks not to waste time and money on testing mold. If you see it or smell it, you have it. If you have it, dont test it; get rid of it.

These are facts, rendered by governmental agencies.

An acceptable level for mold has not been established.

An unacceptable level for mold has not been established.

Degrees of acceptability or unacceptability for molds have not been established. To do this, each species would need to be analyzed and levels extablished. This is a virtual impossibility.

I would NOT want to be in a position of handing a client a slip of paper that says that this or that is acceptable, while this species or that is not. All one needs is for one client to get sick. In the age of mold hysteria, the deck is already stacked against us.

Joe, this statement is so true. But you also need to realize how deeply entwined Pro-Lab is the operations of NACHI and with Nick. Out of all of the home inspector organizations, NACHI is the only one that promotes mold testing to such an extreme. It's all about the money.

If home inspectors would concentrate on the reason that mold is growing in the home, and not on making an extra buck on snake oil mold testing by a person who has sat in an 8 hour class we would all be better off. What good does it do for the homeowner, buyer or whoever to know that the home has cladosporuim or aspergillus (both very common molds). They don't have a clue as to what they are. Now if you are including an abatement plan as part of this service and you are telling the client what they need to do and what actions need to be taken, then this is a good service. But, you don't learn this in an 8 hour Pro-Lab class.

Now have you ever thought about the background spores that might be collecting on your clothing? Yes, you can collect spores on your clothing that could give you false positive readings. Also your equipment can collect spores. This is something that they don't teach you in that 8 hour class.

Do what the EPA and the CDC tells you to do. Get rid of the mold and get rid of the source of moisture that is supporting its growth.

Thank you for allowing a non-NACHI member to comment on such an important topic.

[Jason A. Sieg, CMI]

I think what Nick was trying to say is the creation of a (SOP) Standard of Practice for those who do "Mold Assessment". Not standards of what is acceptable levels of mold it's self.

Like Home Inspection SOP's, what the mold assessor will & will not assess, how the assessor will conduct an assessment, etc..

Here is one of the sites the EPA refers you to for additional information about Mold. This happens to be from the New York City Dept. of Health & Mental Hygiene.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi...1.shtml#enviro

By the way, I can no longer find where the EPA states that you should not waste time or money with testing.

This is directly from their site...

How Do I Know When the Remediation or Cleanup is Finished? You must have completely fixed the water or moisture problem before the cleanup or remediation can be considered finished.

• You should have completed mold removal. Visible mold and moldy odors should not be present. Please note that mold may cause staining and cosmetic damage.
• You should have revisited the site(s) shortly after cleanup and it should show no signs of water damage or mold growth.
• People should have been able to occupy or re-occupy the area without health complaints or physical symptoms.
• Ultimately, this is a judgment call; there is no easy answer. If you have concerns or questions call the EPA Indoor Air Quality Information Clearinghouse IAQ INFO at (800) 438-4318.

"A Judgment Call" If you know lab result of the air quality before and then have lab results after to make a compairson, then you will know if you have had any success.

Looks & Smells can be deceiving... A fresh coat of paint looks clean & smells clean. Does that in your judgment mean the cleanup is finished?

If I was buying a house and the Home Inspector noticed what he/she felt looked like possible mold damage, and I requested it to be taken care of before I will close on the house. The seller will need to have documentation of mold spore counts before and after the repairs to prove to me that if it was mold, that the spore counts have been drastically reduced. I'm not going to just take their word for it. The same thing goes if I own the house and I find a large area of mold in my house. I am not going to take the word of the contractor that they corrected it without documentation showing that their work was successful.

[Joe Farsetta]

Scott,

You are correct. I tell clients that each time you enter the dwelling, you bring mold spores in with you.

I do not perform mold testing. I do not discourage others who do, from doing it. I know first hand, of the hysteria that exists out there.

We will have to wait and see what these standards are about.

[Joe Farsetta]

Jason,

You are correct that the EPA has removed its prior verbiage... sort of. Here's what it's been replaced with:



Sampling

Is sampling for mold needed? In most cases, if visible mold growth is present, sampling is unnecessary. In specific instances, such as cases where litigation is involved, the source(s) of the mold contamination is unclear, or health concerns are a problem, you may consider sampling as part of your site evaluation. Surface sampling may also be useful in order to determine if an area has been adequately cleaned or remediated.

Sampling should be done only after developing a sampling plan that includes a confirmable theory regarding suspected mold sources and routes of exposure. Figure out what you think is happening and how to prove or disprove it before you sample!

If you do not have extensive experience and/or are in doubt about sampling, consult an experienced professional. This individual can help you decide if sampling for mold is useful and/or needed, and will be able to carry out any necessary sampling. It is important to remember that the results of sampling may have limited use or application.

Sampling may help locate the source of mold contamination, identify some of the mold species present, and differentiate between mold and soot or dirt. Pre- and post-remediation sampling may also be useful in determining whether remediation efforts have been effective. After remediation, the types and concentrations of mold in indoor air samples should be similar to what is found in the local outdoor air.

Since no EPA or other Federal threshold limits have been set for mold or mold spores, sampling cannot be used to check a building's compliance with Federal mold standards.

Sampling for mold should be conducted by professionals with specific experience in designing mold sampling protocols, sampling methods, and interpretation of results.

Sample analysis should follow analytical methods recommended by the American Industrial Hygiene Association (AIHA), the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), or other professional guidelines (see Resources List).

Types of samples include air samples, surface samples, bulk samples (chunks of carpet, insulation, wall board, etc.), and water samples from condensate drain pans or cooling towers.

A number of pitfalls may be encountered when inexperienced personnel conduct sampling. They may take an inadequate number of samples, there may be inconsistency in sampling protocols, the samples may become contaminated, outdoor control samples may be omitted, and you may incur costs for unneeded or inappropriate samples. Budget constraints will often be a consideration when sampling; professional advice may be necessary to determine if it is possible to take sufficient samples to characterize a problem on a given budget.

If it is not possible to sample properly, with a sufficient number of samples to answer the question(s) posed, it would be preferable not to sample.

Inadequate sample plans may generate misleading, confusing, and useless results.


What this tells me is that it is not proper to simply take samples for no other reason than to take samples, nor is it wise to take samples without a plan for where and why one is sampling, or ensuring that the proper number of samples are being taken. Most importantly, it indicates that there needs to be a REASON for taking samples.

Maybe Dr. Shane is developing this as a standard or protocol. Maybe he'll provide a clue...

[Jason A. Sieg, CMI]

Joe, Well said.

[Scott Patterson]

I would think that any IAQ standard that covers mold should be developed by a group of folks who are not affiliated with any laboratory. Kind of like home inspector licensing, lets keep it non bias and fair.

If you want a standard, we have had good one for a couple thousand years. Leviticus 39-50 spells it out in fairly simple terms.

[Joe Funderburk, CMI]

Asking a laboratory if you need to test for mold is like asking a barber if you need a haircut.