Cooking Area section added to Commercial Standards of Practice.

[Nick Gromicko]

Actually Gerry, I couldn't agree with your post more. It is technically dead on. If my client and I agree within the scope of work agreement for me to only inspect one light bulb on the third floor and I do just that... I am pretty much liability-free.

The SOP is a base from which the client and inspector agree to deviate from.

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Actually Gerry, I couldn't agree with your post more. It is technically dead on. If my client and I agree within the scope of work agreement for me to only inspect one light bulb on the third floor and I do just that... I am pretty much liability-free.

The SOP is a base from which the client and inspector agree to deviate from.

Nick, your SOP requires:

3.2 Substantial compliance

An inspector who substantially abides by this standard is fully compliant with this standard.

That is why it doesn't work for me and guys like Dale who do these inspections in the real world, the ComSOP as it stands is a dangerous liability.

Regards

Gerry

[Nick Gromicko]

Gerry, read our "home" inspection Code of Ethics 1.1. http://www.nachi.org/code_of_ethics.htm

You never want to insist that an inspector abide 100% by any SOP... that is demanding perfection.

Substantial compliance permits an A minus. When I was in school if I got an A minus... I passed.

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Gerry, read our "home" inspection Code of Ethics 1.1. http://www.nachi.org/code_of_ethics.htm

You never want to insist that an inspector abide 100% by any SOP... that is demanding perfection.

Substantial compliance permits an A minus. When I was in school if I got an A minus... I passed.

Nick you are missing the point, your "inspecting a 3rdfloor light bulb" could never be defended in court as being is "substancial compliance" with Nachi's Commercial standards, no chance no way, neither could 90% of the work I do!!

Regards

Gerry

[Nick Gromicko]

Inspecting a light bulb is 100% in compliance with www.nachi.org/comsop.htm if that is all you and your client agreed to do in the scope of work agreement.

I see the confusion though and don't want it to ocurr again.

So the question I'll ask the attorneys tomorrow is can they come up with some language to modify 3.2 to include or reference

4.3.1 Sample language for use when defining the scope of work: "The inspection will be performed in accordance with InterNACHIcomsop-2008 except that... " so that someone reading 3.2 doesn't assume that a change made in the scope of work agreement puts the inspector out of compliance with the SOP, regardless of how drastic the change.

I don't know the answer but I'll know by tomorrow evening.

Good call Gerry.

[Dale Duffy]

Originally Posted by gbeaumont

That is complete rubbish Nick, you and I had this conversation 2 years ago at the ITA Miami show, I pointed out that I could have no lower liability than agreeing a scope of work with a commercial buyer and producing a report that matches than scope. You agreed!!

I fail to see how mandating a broad SOP decreases liability when all commercial inspections are performed to an agreed scope of work.

BTW this has nothing to do with ASTM it is simple common sense based on 2 parties with equal standing coming to a contractual agreement as to what is going to be inspected and how.

Regards

Gerry

I fail to see how mandating a broad SOP decreases liability when all commercial inspections are performed to an agreed scope of work.

BTW this has nothing to do with ASTM it is simple common sense based on 2 parties with equal standing coming to a contractual agreement as to what is going to be inspected and how.

At least we are on the same page Gerry, I would never use nachi's standard of practice, or even try and explain to a client how it was dreamed up by a few folks because they felt like someone needed it...... ...wild...

Lawsuits are the least of my worries, I have never had a client say "Hey, you didn't do what we agreed on in writing"....Never, I can write, read, and so can all my clients, inspect just what is agreed upon, nothing more, and nothing less....start tossing Nicks standards of practice in their face and they will be looking for a new inspector...!!!....

[gbeaumont]

Hi to all,

I have never had a client say "Hey, you didn't do what we agreed on in writing"....Never, I can write, read, and so can all my clients, inspect just what is agreed upon, nothing more, and nothing less....start tossing Nicks standards of practice in their face and they will be looking for a new inspector...!!!....

Couldn't agree more, I really see no need for a "home inspection" style SOP, ther just is no need for it and having one increases liability, those who want a ComSOP see it as a road map for performing Commercial inspections, and the're wrong, there isn't a road map as every building is different and every buyer or leasor has their own needs.

In fairness, I can see using the standard SOP when doimg small commercial or split use com/res especially if I feel that the client does not know what they need, or if they are not normally dealing with commercial property, but for the most part that ain't my market.

Regards

Gerry

[RAY THOROMAN]

Dale or Gerry,

Would you ever consider using a InterNACHI comsop if it were overhauled?

Do you disagree with the InterNACHI comsop from top to bottom? Or is it certain sections like 6.5.11 or 6.5.12 that you disagree with?

Is it certain words like The inspector should ''inspect'' versus ASTM The field observer should ''observe''

Or do you feel that a PCR is needed or should be included as a baseline standard?

Is InterNACHI wasting time trying to build a better comsop/baseline standard or at least something one would consider using?


Thanks,
RT

[gbeaumont]

Hi Ray,

that is a very good question, and I'm not sure I have the answer!

Here's the issue, how can anyone write an SOP that can be ignored when needed? As I've said my inspections are based on a clients requirements, the parties I contract with know what they want, we are "parties of equal standing" that is not the case when you contract for a residential inspection.

Regards

Gerry

[Dale Duffy]

Originally Posted by rthoroman

Dale or Gerry,

Would you ever consider using a InterNACHI comsop if it were overhauled?

Ray, there is no need for any commercial standards made up by a home inspection association that most people doesn't even know exists in the first place in my opinion for starters, and I guess Gerry must have the same clients I have, they know what they want, and it's put in writing, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever start showing a client some pieces of paper of what Nick Gromicko thinks the commercial standards of practice should or will be in the United States of America...it makes me laugh even thinking such a thing, no offense to Nick, but he should stick with the houses, get the used house salesman in the United States to know his association even exists regarding homes, let alone commercial buildings. And no offense to any new inspectors here, or other folks who have never inspected a commercial building, believe me I get phone call after phone call from nachi members wanting to make great money inspecting this type of property, but many have not mastered home inspections yet, or have done very few.

Do you disagree with the InterNACHI comsop from top to bottom? Or is it certain sections like 6.5.11 or 6.5.12 that you disagree with?

I have my own standards of practice, it is what the client wants inspected in writing, nothing more and nothing less, if you want to follow what ASTM has to offer, its spelled out quite clearly, a mutual agreement between both parties in writing regarding the scope of work...it works well believe me, so I have no need for Nicks standards.

Is it certain words like The inspector should ''inspect'' versus ASTM The field observer should ''observe''

The whole thing is a fiasco in my opinion, waste of time and effort.

Or do you feel that a PCR is needed or should be included as a baseline standard?

You have to inspect what your client wants inspected, forget about ASTM, forget about nachi, if you keep yourself in this jungle of words you will be spending more time trying to figure out what the hell these bizarre standards are saying instead of inspecting, and when you find a client who ever heard of the ASTM standards much less Nicks, let me know, because I have never run into anyone who ever heard of the ASTM standards EVER...so why confuse something which does not require confusion.

Is InterNACHI wasting time trying to build a better comsop/baseline standard or at least something one would consider using?

I bet all the nachi cheerleaders will be using it, and I bet they will be the first to go out of the commercial inspection business, or be in court, before they even finish a few reports.

Thanks,
RT

Good luck to everyone..!!...but be careful out there if you don't know what your doing!!.. no SOP will help anyone in that department.

[Nick Gromicko]

Dale writes:

be careful out there if you don't know what your doing!!.. no SOP will help anyone in that department.

OF COURSE! But our SOP does create a path which one can follow... but I agree with you, it only tells you where the path is, not how to get down it.

Like it or not, here are some facts we can't simply turn our heads away from:

"Nick", as you put it, is the head of the world's largest inspection association.
That association is no longer just a "home" inspection association and hasn't been for many years. Like it or not again, we are into all sorts of inspections as are YOUR fellow members. These include:

Chimneys
Energy Loss
Green Building
IAC2 Certified
Lead
Log Homes
Mold
New Construction
Pools and Spas
Pre-Listing
Radon
Septic
Stucco/EIFS
Thermal Imaging
Water Quality
WDO/Insects
WETT
and yes.... commercial inspections.

Our commercial inspection courses are getting state approval everywhere and the classes are packed. I'm not pulling this cart, YOUR fellow members are pushing it! I'm just trying to keep it from running into a tree.

YOUR fellow members, like it or not, are entering the commercial inspection field. I have almost no choice here but to act on their behalf.

Here is my problem... Gerry is right... right for him. You can author any agreement you want with your client. But in the real world our clients have existing expectations of what a commercial inspection entails... AND... YOUR fellow members are not going to be able to author a Scope of Work Agreement that comes any where near those expectations (what they have to do) or covers their **** (what they don't have to do). A strong SOP does both. And in lieu of a robust, all encompassing Scope of Work Agreement... the SOP they follow rules. A scope of work is merely a list of ways in which members and their clients agree to veer from that SOP. Therefore the SOP must exist and it must be bullet proof. I dare not even add up what we spent on legal fees on this pig for fear of throwing up.

Here comes the problem parts... until www.nachi.org/comsop.htm no commercial inspection path for our members existed, no exclusions existed, no limitations existed, no outside consultant agreement existed, no commercial contract existed, no optional thermal imaging contract existed, and no bullet proof SOP existed!

Problems solved.

[Dale Duffy]

Therefore the SOP must exist and it must be bullet proof. I dare not even add up what we spent on legal fees on this pig for fear of throwing up

You wasted your money in my opinion, but it is only my opinion, being a very successful commercial building inspector.

[RAY THOROMAN]

I am enjoying all opinions and comments here.


I agree it comes down to what you and your client agree to in terms of what the scope of work entails. I agree it's best to be well prepared to perform commercial inspections, not just take a 2 day course, copy some agreement available online and away you go the next day

At some point does your agreement state some sort of baseline or standard?

Like this?

Unless otherwise inconsistent with this Agreement or not possible, INSPECTOR agrees to perform the inspection in accordance with InterNACHI's International Standards of Practice for Inspecting Commercial Properties. Although INSPECTOR agrees to follow these standards, CLIENT understands that these standards contain certain limitations, exceptions, and exclusions. CLIENT also understands that InterNACHI is not a party to this Agreement and that InterNACHI has no control over INSPECTOR or representations made by INSPECTOR and does not supervise INSPECTOR. As noted above, this commercial building inspection is visual only.

Or does your agreement spell out every little item to be inspected and every little item not to be inspected?


I know home inspection totally different than commercial inspections but do we not at some point refer back to a standard or baseline for home inspections? And I would assume most refer some baseline or standard in their commercial inspection agreement. Most commercial agreements just refer to the ASTM.

My home inspection agreement does not just say - Inspector will inspect your home to the nachi sop if you agree just sign here.


Now you all have shed some light on this aspect. We as members of InterNACHI are an association of home inspectors, not commercial inspectors. It may be well served to berth an Inter national association of commercial inspectors. Then again maybe the industry does not have a need at this time for that.

RT

[gbeaumont]

Hi to all

Originally Posted by Nick G

YOUR fellow members are not going to be able to author a Scope of Work Agreement that comes any where near those expectations

Nick if that is the case those members should realy be concidering whether Commercial inspections are the right thing for their businesses, the iNACHI comSOP in its current form will not help them.

Regards

Gerry