www.FireDoorInspector.org

[Darren Spencer]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Darren,

Currently we get sued for stuff like leaky roofs, defective heating systems, failed water heaters, termites, mold, etc.

Picture yourself named in a wrongful death lawsuit.

Picture yourself sued for $150 mil.

Picture yourself with your E&O carrier walking away.

Picture your E&O carrier testifying that the reason they walked is because a fire door inspection is not part of a standard and recognized SOP.

Picture the medical examiner testifying how the victims died.

Picture the fire inspector explaining how the fire spread.

Picture the building inspector stating that you had no business inspecting and blessing the fire door.

Picture the district attorney explaining the criminal charges to the grand jury.

Now picture the $50 or $100 extra you charged for this inspection.

Picture your family living on welfare, because your bank accounts and assets have been stripped.

Picture your wife childrens faces when they possibly visit you in prison.

Whether we believe we are truly qualified or not is NOT the issue. The PERCEPTION and MARKETING is what counts. Go ahead... Put your name as the last professional hired to inspect the assembly.

You'll be WISHING it was just a mold suit.

This is total insanity, IMO

Picture this... a properly trained inspector saving lives by finding unsafe door installation.

Picture this.... being able to have health insurance for your family

Picture this.... offering a service without a Realtor involved

Picture this.....vacations

Give me all the jobs.... I'll be happy to show up in court with my report!

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Now you're trying to act like you don't test anything. Crazy.

Primarily what I do is called a visual inspection, from what limited information you and Marcel provided about testing roll up fire doors, leads me to believe that would be considered a destructive test.

Two entirely different things. Crazy as it may seem.

And as to Joe's post about NY AHJ being the only expert in court with fire door knowledge sounds like a bureaucrat protecting his turf. I would bet a fire door manufacturer or installer might actually be experts in their field.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Firedoorinspection

http://www.maxsonassoc.com/serv03.htm

http://www.fdis1.com/

Somone is making money performing these services.

Of course they seem to differentiate inspecting and testing, imagine that?

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

Firedoorinspection

http://www.maxsonassoc.com/serv03.htm

http://www.fdis1.com/

Of course they seem to differentiate inspecting and testing, imagine that?

Yes, someone is making money in inspecting fire doors.
But only after the proper training and expert learning of all component hardware that is associated with fire doors and there respective roles in the proper function of the intended operations.

I think the point here, is to make known that a 1 day class of how to inspect Commercial Fire Doors will not make you certified to go out in the field and start inspecting fire doors at will.
Besides not being fully trained in doing such an inspection, one would not be capable of doing the testing that should also go along with the Inspection, open yourself up to lawsuits, and point blank not know the true functionality of the Fire Door itself.
I agree that the AHJ's will not and are not experts in this field also, but will be quick to say, well your name is on the inspection of this unit and it did not function during a fire and failed.
Then what?

I would strongly suggest that anyone that wants to venture into this ancillary Inspection, get the proper training in Fire Door Inspections and Builders Hardware.
This would encompass many hours of training.

My concern would be expressed to try and caution many Home Inspectors into venturing in an Inspection of Fire Doors without the proper protocol of the education required along with it.

[Joe Farsetta]

Marcel,

Thank you for putting into focus what I was trying to convey.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Yes, someone is making money in inspecting fire doors.
But only after the proper training and expert learning of all component hardware that is associated with fire doors and there respective roles in the proper function of the intended operations.

I think the point here, is to make known that a 1 day class of how to inspect Commercial Fire Doors will not make you certified to go out in the field and start inspecting fire doors at will.
Besides not being fully trained in doing such an inspection, one would not be capable of doing the testing that should also go along with the Inspection, open yourself up to lawsuits, and point blank not know the true functionality of the Fire Door itself.
I agree that the AHJ's will not and are not experts in this field also, but will be quick to say, well your name is on the inspection of this unit and it did not function during a fire and failed.
Then what?

I would strongly suggest that anyone that wants to venture into this ancillary Inspection, get the proper training in Fire Door Inspections and Builders Hardware.
This would encompass many hours of training.

My concern would be expressed to try and caution many Home Inspectors into venturing in an Inspection of Fire Doors without the proper protocol of the education required along with it.

Well Duh.

[Darren Spencer]

Proper training goes for anything. Look how many HI ask the most simple Q's here and are actually inspecting homes...Imagine what they are missing.

Anyone have any figures on death counts by faulty fire doors? and legal cases won lost?

I do not recall any in my lifetime where the reported cause was the door.

[Joe Farsetta]

Darren,

Its not the POINT. TZh reality is that the doors are certified through UL based on the manufacturer's installation specifications, and through the inspection of said assembly by the building inspector and fire marshall after initial installation by the manufacturer's installer or representative.

Unless there is a modification, renovation, change of use, or new installation, the assembly is not re-examined.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons we dont see or hear about this stuff.

That being said, now the HI comes along and offers this new "service". On top of that, he puts his name on the doors inspection tag.

Where there was no finger to point at in the past, there is one now. I am not only speaking of strict liability relating to the door actually acting as a fire barrier, but any and all injuries associated with it, including a child getting their fingers pinched or crushed.

Remember, fire-rated assemblies/doors sometimes serve as a pass-through between rooms, and swing when opened and closed. We also spoke of pressure and speed of return, etc.

Finally, what heppens when you say its fine, and the client puts plans in for renovation, only to discover that the revised code requires a different size opening, style of door, or endurance rating. Now the client is staring at a cost not previously considered, as you said the assembly was okay.

My point in all of this is that these are beyond the scope of an inspection, until yo say it is included. Unfortunately, your E&O carrier will still say its beyond any SOP, and not indemnify you for it.

So, its fine if you are AWARE of the pitfalls and choose to move ahead with this stuff. But, one needs to consider all the possibilities, and examine the risk/benefit factor.

That's all we are saying here.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Unfortunately, your E&O carrier will still say its beyond any SOP, and not indemnify you for it.

uhhhh... DUH! Pretty much any business a man will branch out into will have different insurance requirements. There is insurance for everything.

[Joe Farsetta]

Duh?

Since you aint an inspector, and don not carry the type of insurance required for indemnification of an error or omission, you are (once again) talking out your *****.

Let's see... since this doesnt pertain to a failure of a product we sold or installed or BROKE, I guess that general liability don't fit. Hmmm.... Inspections. Let's see. What type. What type. What type. Oh year! Indemnification against an error or admission!

What you say? It wont cover gross negligence or willful neglect? Never mind! Its just a fire door! No sweat...

Okay, genuis... Since you claim this type insurance or rider is available, why not find some for us?

Duh?

What a dope.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Okay, genuis... Since you claim this type insurance or rider is available, why not find some for us?

Actually, I am a genius by the traditional definition of the word, but that's another matter. You, on the other hand, must be at least part psychic. I was already planning on getting a quote from my insurance broker to protect myself from liability if I "install, repair, maintain, inspect, and test fire rated doors". I have an email in my drafts ready to send to him.

[Joe Farsetta]

Only interested in the inspection part.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Only interested in the inspection part.

So write your own email then. If I can get covered for all of it, I can get covered for a part of it.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Only interested in the inspection part.

He's a "genius", by definition, Joe. Geniuses know everything.

Your point is valid, though. Presently, those who install for the manufacturer do so under his employer's insurance policy...thus, finding a policy for an installer should be rather routine.

Inspectors, however, are a recent invention.

I think that the ironic part of this discussion on insurance is that it will be the inspector whose name appears on the sticker that the insurance company who pays out for the loss of the building and/or life that will be attempting to recover their losses from, along with every party they can find who inspected and approved anything in the building that did not properly work during the fire.

This is why states and cities pass ordinances that protect their AHJs from lawsuits for what they inspect. Only when the insurance company can prove that the city official did not actually perform the inspection that the records reflect that he did, can they sue.

Insurance investigators are very thorough in discovering tort-feasors from whom they may recover their losses on a payout.

[Nick Gromicko]

Joe Farseta writes:

The opinion of this professional is that, in the event of a trial where the AHJ is called upon by a plaintiff to provide expert testimony, the AHJ will state for the record that only the AJH can and should inspect any fire door assembly for installation and functionality.

I talk to AHJs all over the country every day about all sorts of stuff and I've never known one, not one, to actually perform a fire door inspection as part of his/her government duties. Not one. Are you sure you found one Joe? Every one I talk to wants to only review the inspection reports of others to make sure it has been recently inspected.

Joe also writes:

Fire door inspections are specifically excluded from covered activities of inspectors, due to the fact that they are clearly beyond the scope of the inspection.

How can a fire door inspection be excluded from the activities covered by a commercial fire door inspector. How can a fire door inspection be clearly beyond the scope of a fire door inspection? You make no sense.