[Paul W. Abernathy]

[QUOTE=jmoore5;543935]Paul,

How would you know if it is AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material or something else?[/QUOTE]

Man...I am SOOOOOO glad you asked Mr. Moore. After speaking with many of the wiring manufacturers over the years I finally ran across a great explanaton article I would love to pass on. The article is freely on the internet and is a GREAT read for HI's and AL haters alike. Most of the concern is for AL wiring prior to 1972 but read the article for some GREAT information.

Here ya go..........ENJOY !

http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/Text/AluminumHist2.pdf

[Brian E. Kelly]

Nice article Paul. But my State SOP requires I point out all AL Branch wiring. I did not see in the AL wire article you linked where it said either stranded or solid??

"The inspector shall:

A. describe:

service amperage and voltage.
service entry conductor materials.
service type as being overhead or underground.
location of main and distribution panels.
B. report any observed aluminum branch circuit wiring"

[Paul W. Abernathy]

[QUOTE=bkelly2;544017]Nice article Paul. But my State SOP requires I point out all AL Branch wiring. I did not see in the AL wire article you linked where it said either stranded or solid??

"The inspector shall:

A. describe:

service amperage and voltage.
service entry conductor materials.
service type as being overhead or underground.
location of main and distribution panels.
B. report any observed aluminum branch circuit wiring"[/QUOTE]

Remember Brian....articles are not written as specific but as general. The articles are informative but not always relavant to everywhere and every organization. However, it could simply be that your state is ignorant to the facts ( not you fella...lol...your state..lol ) as with many. It will not matter solid or stranded in this case since the article talks about 12,10 and 8 AWG which at the time period was mainly solid. The issue really was the steel screws on devices and AL Wiring and less to do with the AL Wiring itself after 1972.

Lets take Ohio for example ( and I have nothing against OHIO..lol ) but they refuse to accept the 2008 NEC out of ignorance and nothing more. Once they wake up and see how the NEC is designed and how it evolves they will be more educated.

The key here is to make sure recommendations are just that and not blazing defect notices that can come back to haunt the HI....nothing more.....nothing less.

Also their is a fine line between "reporting" the existense of AL branch Circuits versus saying in the same report that in a house that may be wired in AL conductors after 1972 and with markings showing it as AA-8000 series wire would be a defect....just the wiring method of choice.

[Christopher Currins]

[QUOTE=bkelly2;544017]Nice article Paul. But my State SOP requires I point out all AL Branch wiring. I did not see in the AL wire article you linked where it said either stranded or solid??

"The inspector shall:

A. describe:

service amperage and voltage.
service entry conductor materials.
service type as being overhead or underground.
location of main and distribution panels.
B. report any observed aluminum branch circuit wiring"[/QUOTE]At least the Illinois SOP includes "solid".

k) When, pursuant to the written agreement with a client, the electrical
system is inspected, the home inspector shall:

3) Report on the presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit
wiring and on the absence of smoke detectors.

[Brian E. Kelly]

[QUOTE=pabernathy;544022]Remember Brian....articles are not written as specific but as general. The articles are informative but not always relavant to everywhere and every organization. However, it could simply be that your state is ignorant to the facts ( not you fella...lol...your state..lol ) as with many. It will not matter solid or stranded in this case since the article talks about 12,10 and 8 AWG which at the time period was mainly solid. The issue really was the steel screws on devices and AL Wiring and less to do with the AL Wiring itself after 1972.

Lets take Ohio for example ( and I have nothing against OHIO..lol ) but they refuse to accept the 2008 NEC out of ignorance and nothing more. Once they wake up and see how the NEC is designed and how it evolves they will be more educated.

The key here is to make sure recommendations are just that and not blazing defect notices that can come back to haunt the HI....nothing more.....nothing less.

Also their is a fine line between "reporting" the existense of AL branch Circuits versus saying in the same report that in a house that may be wired in AL conductors after 1972 and with markings showing it as AA-8000 series wire would be a defect....just the wiring method of choice.[/QUOTE]

I will see you in the Electrical thread Paul

[Paul W. Abernathy]

My point is this.......why call something out as a defect just because someone else said it is bad. When you speak to the actual company that makes the conductors and have just as much invested in CU versus AL, it is refreshing to see a manufacturer clear the air so to speak. It is important to not simply call out things as defects versus observations simply due to lack of foundation to the claim.

Yes, AL Wiring both "Solid" or "Stranded" was an issue back prior to 1972 but it was mostly due to the termination issues. They cleared this up in 1972 and even today the NEC allows AL solid conductors in 12AWG, 10AWG and up.....if they choose to actually manufacturer it. Hwever, the costs of the devices that accept AL keeps this demand down.

Your right....I dont wish to educate here....i dont like this area much.

[David P. Valley]

Today's AL branch wiring (AA-8000 series) is not solid anyways. It is compact stranded.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_installing_aluminum_building/

[David P. Valley]

And we still have Electricians talking bad about the AA-8000 series newer AL wiring...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/AA-8000-aluminum-wire.htm

[Marcel R. Cyr]

[QUOTE=jmoore5;543935]Paul,

How would you know if it is AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material or something else?[/QUOTE]

This Article may help along with Pauls' response.

http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/Text/AluminumHist2.pdf

[Paul W. Abernathy]

[QUOTE=dvalley;544071]Today's AL branch wiring (AA-8000 series) is not solid anyways. It is compact stranded.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_installing_aluminum_building/[/QUOTE]

Interesting....I dont read that article that way.....

Today, aluminum alloy building wire is [generally]available in sizes 8 AWG to 1,000kcmil (up to 1,500kcmil in Canada). [Although not required by the 2005 National Electrical Code (NEC)], aluminum alloy building wire in the United States is compact stranded and generally can be used in the same size conduit as copper. Compact stranding reduces the diameter of the conductor by about 10% (Photo 1).

Notice the portions I put in []....Generally does not prohibit it......and notice that the NEC does not prohibit it's usage......be careful about reading things generally into statements as article are written by people....the NEC is written by the masses.

[James H. Bushart]

[QUOTE=pabernathy;542796]Ahh.....I wont read all that but I will say this. If person has a new panel and it does not have Anti-Oxident on the AL Conductors on the main lugs and an HI calls it a defect in his report, I sure hope they have some verbiage on the panel cover that supports their claims. Not just an opinion from a 3rd party source.[/QUOTE]


Why is that Paul?

A home inspector is not limited to the code book, as is a code official.

What you are professing, here, is a "minimum basic standard". If a home inspector knows of how to improve upon that and provide a safer environment for his client....he should. Code officials are limited in what they can report. Not home inspectors.

Billy....There is no reason not to continue with what you are presently doing. If some code schmuck disagrees with you, share your sources with him and the client as to how the "basic minimum standard" can be exceeded for the safety of the client and the protection of his assets.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

[QUOTE=jbushart;544798]Why is that Paul?

A home inspector is not limited to the code book, as is a code official.

What you are professing, here, is a "minimum basic standard". If a home inspector knows of how to improve upon that and provide a safer environment for his client....he should. Code officials are limited in what they can report. Not home inspectors.

Billy....There is no reason not to continue with what you are presently doing. If some code schmuck disagrees with you, share your sources with him and the client as to how the "basic minimum standard" can be exceeded for the safety of the client and the protection of his assets.[/QUOTE]

What expert opinion on a scope of knowledge is the HI basing the information one other than a personal belief. I am not saying HI's can't call out anything they want as that was not my intent with the coversation ( it is a learning approach i am after ) and when making statements in a court of law which do you think will have more weight. In the end all we are saying here is understand the condition and weigh all the factors, do not offer a blanket statement to anything due to lack of knowledge as a validation for concern. You know very well I support HI's calling out things to be deferred and I still support, but I am also not here to tell people what to do but simply provide them with all the information to make a knowledgeable choice.

[James H. Bushart]

[QUOTE=pabernathy;544835]What expert opinion on a scope of knowledge is the HI basing the information one other than a personal belief. I am not saying HI's can't call out anything they want as that was not my intent with the coversation ( it is a learning approach i am after ) and when making statements in a court of law which do you think will have more weight. In the end all we are saying here is understand the condition and weigh all the factors, do not offer a blanket statement to anything due to lack of knowledge as a validation for concern. You know very well I support HI's calling out things to be deferred and I still support, but I am also not here to tell people what to do but simply provide them with all the information to make a knowledgeable choice.[/QUOTE]

Paul...thank you for what you do.

I am simply pointing out that you...who must make factual statements that will be upheld in courts of law....are limited to the basic minimum standards. We are sorry for you, in that regard. It must be very frustrating to want to do more, but not be able to.

Inspectors are hired by their clients to inspect and report on what they see and know. They can bring their personal beliefs, their recent training courses, their readings and studies from various resources....and provide their clients with information that is not designed to "stand up in court", but simply to make their experiences more pleasurable and safe in their new homes.

Tedesco had a real problem with this.

For example, you could not call out as a defect aluminum wiring in a 110v circuit, since it does not violate the NEC. I, on the other hand, can warn my client on the history of its danger and recommend replacement.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

[QUOTE=jbushart;544847]Paul...thank you for what you do.

I am simply pointing out that you...who must make factual statements that will be upheld in courts of law....are limited to the basic minimum standards. We are sorry for you, in that regard. It must be very frustrating to want to do more, but not be able to.

Inspectors are hired by their clients to inspect and report on what they see and know. They can bring their personal beliefs, their recent training courses, their readings and studies from various resources....and provide their clients with information that is not designed to "stand up in court", but simply to make their experiences more pleasurable and safe in their new homes.

Tedesco had a real problem with this.

For example, you could not call out as a defect aluminum wiring in a 110v circuit, since it does not violate the NEC. I, on the other hand, can warn my client on the history of its danger and recommend replacement.[/QUOTE]

lol...don't feel sorry for me my friend. I have done very well for myself with the NEC as my staple. However, you missed what I was saying totally and I do help many HI's with the understanding of Electrical Knowledge but my biggest and proudest achievement is when an HI comes to me and thanks me for what they have learned. Now, this does not mean they learned to quote code. It means they have learned to take what we teach them as a basis and apply it to their business and this gives them the ability to make those personal and very valid statements. However, we have to understand that we are not dealing with every aspect of anything the NEC is saying.....in fact the AL issues is not an NEC issue at all. The manufactures of the products whom have liability have also spoken on the products to which they as david stated do not produce any longer. Lets go beyond the court room and I am willing to even state my life on the reliability of AL Wiring in todays market as it pertains to AL Stranded Wiring and if we are talking about properly installed, properly sized and properly produced AA8000 AL solid 12 or 10 AWG I have no fears of it being ok with the proper terminals....my experience tells me I dont see fires from AL Wiring, I see fires from improper termination of the wiring onto improper devices not listed for AL Wiring.

Again NEVER compare me to Mr. Tedesco as we come from two different worlds....I would not still be here teaching HI's if we were the same. My goal is to educate and hopefully teach someone something and give back to an industry that has been good to me.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

[QUOTE=pabernathy;544928]lol...don't feel sorry for me my friend. I have done very well for myself with the NEC as my staple. However, you missed what I was saying totally and I do help many HI's with the understanding of Electrical Knowledge but my biggest and proudest achievement is when an HI comes to me and thanks me for what they have learned. Now, this does not mean they learned to quote code. It means they have learned to take what we teach them as a basis and apply it to their business and this gives them the ability to make those personal and very valid statements. However, we have to understand that we are not dealing with every aspect of anything the NEC is saying.....in fact the AL issues is not an NEC issue at all. The manufactures of the products whom have liability have also spoken on the products to which they as david stated do not produce any longer. Lets go beyond the court room and I am willing to even state my life on the reliability of AL Wiring in todays market as it pertains to AL Stranded Wiring and if we are talking about properly installed, properly sized and properly produced AA8000 AL solid 12 or 10 AWG I have no fears of it being ok with the proper terminals....my experience tells me I dont see fires from AL Wiring, I see fires from improper termination of the wiring onto improper devices not listed for AL Wiring.

Again NEVER compare me to Mr. Tedesco as we come from two different worlds....I would not still be here teaching HI's if we were the same. My goal is to educate and hopefully teach someone something and give back to an industry that has been good to me.[/QUOTE]

You've had me convinced a long time ago Paul.

Fret not, you are an excellent educator of the Electrical Systems and most important of all you teach in the fashion to HI's that we can keep that information into perspective based on what we do in the field.

Knowing how to identify defects based on what we learn daily from your teachings, is something no one can take away from us and makes us better Inspectors following the SOP in the Field.

Thank you for all you do.

I can now say I know more on Alluminum Wiring than I did a week ago.

Thank you Sir.

Marcel