Came Behind Experienced Inspector

[relliott]

Mr #5 ,if you give me a flashlight and screwdriver I can do an inspection.
Everything else is chasing the last 5% that requires more.
Since this is the IR forum as John pointed out ,I take my leave.
Just remember no tool will substitute the six senses (common).

[James H. Bushart]

John. Does infrared detect moisture....or simply differences in temperature?

I am of the understanding that it photographs different temps in different colors.

I am thinking that, depending upon the ambient temperatures, your photographs may be just as likely to be interpreted as variances in insulation as the existence of moisture.

Is and infra-red camera....without a moisture meter and other visual detection of moisture penetration....actually conclusive?

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by bking

I had a client that owned an IR camera.

His new 600k modular home had water run in before the roof was complete.
The rain soaked some fiberglass insulation.
The insulation later dried out and months passed as they finished the home.
The builder said he replaced the insulation but probably did not.

When I did the inspection, my client showed me the areas where water had entered using his IR camera. The display showed a significant (can't remember how much) temperature difference at the area that had been wet months before. This would make many IR inspectors think that a leak was present but it was not. All I can figure is that the insulation is damaged and allowing the area to show cooler. Any air infiltration at this large area would also show up next to the same area since it was all the same ceiling area and part of an interior wall. Be careful with jumping the gun and saying someones house is leaking water, you might get sued.

Excellent post.

ALL anaomalies should be verified and NEVER make a call by
just using the IR camera alone. Good advise.

Materials can change after they are wet and will not show the
same temperature characteristics as before they were wet.
Likewise, cool air will look similar to a wet spot. These are
some of the same issues we discuss in our training. You are
making some really important points.

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

If we avoid the discussion of an IR camera because some
cannot afford one, then that would seem a little extreme.
I feel most mature adults can manage to get past the emotions
of seeing others with a tool they do not own yet. I was in the
same boat for years. It never bothered me.

BTW... this is an IR forum.

Nice insult John...

It doesn't bother me either. It is what it is. I don't believe I said anything about not discussing IR technology because some don't have one. Hell I'm learning from all this and encourage this discussion.

I guess I'll leave since this is an IR forum, and since I don't own one I must not belong here.

[dharris]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I came behind an inspector with 23 years experience and over 30 years
in construction. Without an IR camera he had no way to see nine areas
that had moisture in the wall cavities. Inspectors have no idea how
vulnerable they are.

Below is just a sample of some of the moisture areas.

http://texas-inspection.com/sample7.jpg

John.. Thanks for this post.
This past winter I've seen over a hundred doors like your photo, with no signs of moisture on the floor or threshold , I just figured water doesn't run up hill ,and just wrote it as recommending sealing or replacing the weather stripping, never thought to pull out the moisture meter.

When are you and Decker gonna coplete your IR course so I can be as good as you, and be nickey IR certified , and get my free nacho membership.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jbushart

John. Does infrared detect moisture....or simply differences in temperature?

IR cameras do not detect moisture, only temperature displayed
as an image.

I am of the understanding that it photographs different temps in different colors.

Yes.

I am thinking that, depending upon the ambient temperatures, your photographs may be just as likely to be interpreted as variances in insulation as the existence of moisture.

Without training and verification, this can be a common mistake.
You are correct. After a while, you learn to see the difference
more easily, but it takes some time in the field.

Is and infra-red camera....without a moisture meter and other visual detection of moisture penetration....actually conclusive?

Under certain conditions, it can be very conclusive... but without as much
verification as possible it is unwise to call out defects with the IR camera
alone. The thermal image camera can scan large areas in minutes, but a moisture
meter must still be used to verify a wet spot (I recommend a dual function
moisture meter because if further verifies what you trying to report on).

You will find more defects with an IR camera, but you have to force a
delta T (change of temperature) sometimes, or be aware of it's limitations
(lack of temperature difference) on the IR camera

The IR camera is not a silver bullet, but way better than without it. IMHO.

[Kevin R. Weiss]

Thanks for the thread and pics and lesson, John.

Pictures don't really look like typical moisture infiltration to me either, and I have seen quite a bit with my IR. But as they were confirmed by a moisture meter and secondary investigation, it serves as a good lesson to not assume air infiltration, take the time to double check anomalies with your moisture meter.

I personally have come to hate winter from a moisture detection perspective. I much prefer summer when most air issues are hot and water is cold.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dharris

John.. Thanks for this post.
This past winter I've seen over a hundred doors like your photo, with no signs of moisture on the floor or threshold , I just figured water doesn't run up hill ,and just wrote it as recommending sealing or replacing the weather stripping, never thought to pull out the moisture meter.

When are you and Decker gonna coplete your IR course so I can be as good as you, and be nickey IR certified , and get my free nacho membership.

The IR images I posted reveal more than a threshold issue. Look at the
faint images in the walls. I am not sure of your training, so I am not
trying to insult you.

Regarding your other comments, I pass. You can read the testimonies
of those who have taken the class.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by kweiss

Thanks for the thread and pics and lesson, John.

Pictures don't really look like typical moisture infiltration to me either, and I have seen quite a bit with my IR. But as they were confirmed by a moisture meter and secondary investigation, it serves as a good lesson to not assume air infiltration, take the time to double check anomalies with your moisture meter.

I personally have come to hate winter from a moisture detection perspective. I much prefer summer when most air issues are hot and water is cold.

You have made good points indeed.

Sometimes the environment requires extra care and verification. I have seen
huge moisture problems, hidden as very very faint images that were even
too light to take a picture of, yet they revealed the location of massive amounts
of moisture intrusion that could not be seen with the naked eye.

It all depends on delta T, how long has it been since it was wet, and
how the moisture mingles with other materials. It is never a simple
rule that they always look the same in every house. It will keep you
on your toes...

The moisture meter is my best friend, along with the IR camera.

[John McKenna]

I used to do portraits of peoples photos using an 1/8 grid method. I would have
to look at the same grid for weeks as I duplicated the photograph. It seems
to help me now to study details. Funny how some things stay with you, even from
your youth.

When looking at the IR image, we look at not only the darker image (in the case
of a cool moist spot), but also its pattern in relationship to where it is and what
it is doing with the materials associated with that area. You learn to see with your
understanding, along with your eyes, as you study IR images. Having built
houses in the past, seems to make this easier.

[dharris]

[quote]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

The IR images I posted reveal more than a threshold issue. Look at the
faint images in the walls. I am not sure of your training, so I am not
trying to insult you.

All the doors that I wrote up [ that looked exactly like your photos ] were under patios or entrys 6 or more ft.

I did have on that was not, water stains were on the floor covering and baseboard.

Considering it only rained 6-8days this past winter I think I may be clear of getting sued for missing moisture entry

Don't worry about insulting me
If I recall just a few short months ago, you stated that you were inspecting for 4 or so years and completed a couple hundred inspections, now its 10 ..
Now come clean, are you talking human yrs or dog years

Regarding your other comments, I pass. You can read the testimonies
of those who have taken the class.

Heck.. I've had 100s of customers offer to give me testimonies, problem with that, most of them never had any other inspection to compare mine to.
like most of your students that took your course and provided testimonies [ that decker admited was not even completed] most of them never had prior IR training.

As far as I'm concerned , when looking for a product or serviced, I figure testimonies on a web site are like -------s everybody has one
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[John McKenna]

[quote=dharris]

All the doors that I wrote up [ that looked exactly like your photos ] were under patios or entrys 6 or more ft.

I did have on that was not, water stains were on the floor covering and baseboard.

Considering it only rained 6-8days this past winter I think I may be clear of getting sued for missing moisture entry

Don't worry about insulting me
If I recall just a few short months ago, you stated that you were inspecting for 4 or so years and completed a couple hundred inspections, now its 10 ..
Now come clean, are you talking human yrs or dog years



Heck.. I've had 100s of customers offer to give me testimonies, problem with that, most of them never had any other inspection to compare mine to.
like most of your students that took your course and provided testimonies [ that decker admited was not even completed] most of them never had prior IR training.

As far as I'm concerned , when looking for a product or serviced, I figure testimonies on a web site are like -------s everybody has one
</IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG>

My TREC number is #4565. You can go to their web site and figure out
my experience. If you heard wrong, that sometimes happens. I have been
inspecting for 9 years and 7 mths.

I have done 1200+ inspections.

Mr Decker is always adding and improving. He is that kind of guy.

[cbottger]

Here is an example of a roof flashing leak as indicated on the second pic of the dry wall stain. The moisture meter indicated 7% moisture, well within the range of normal. I took two shots with the IR camera one in iron and one in rainbow. The rainbow actually indicated a better image showing a trace of moisture. The valley flashing had water stains visible from within the attic and on the exterior side the valley had a fresh coat of tar as a patch. Along with this image, hail damage numerous missing and or damaged shingles I condemned this roof. We will see what happens; this is about a week old will see if a roofing contractor will back me up on this.

John being that I am older and have more inspections under my belt I am going to give you some fatherly advice you can take it or leave it.

You have been coming on super strong on the board as the ultimate authority on moisture intrusion with the IR camera. You appear to me as just promoting your classes rather than trying to be helpful. There are numerous members that very well remember when you enrolled in your First Ir class right along with a few others me included. I am not trying to bash you just point out what I see in your post and I think a few other are seeing the same approach.
You get real defensive if anyone mentions did you back it up with a meter.

John Relax this is a learning experience for all of us including non-camera members alike.

Perhaps I am wrong and if so will apologize in public to you.

[Chuck Lambert]

John,

Can you post the radiometric images only? I am just curious and would like to view them in my software. Not doubting just curious.

Thanks,
Chuck

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by cbottger

Here is an example of a roof flashing leak as indicated on the second pic of the dry wall stain. The moisture meter indicated 7% moisture, well within the range of normal. I took two shots with the IR camera one in iron and one in rainbow. The rainbow actually indicated a better image showing a trace of moisture. The valley flashing had water stains visible from within the attic and on the exterior side the valley had a fresh coat of tar as a patch. Along with this image, hail damage numerous missing and or damaged shingles I condemned this roof. We will see what happens; this is about a week old will see if a roofing contractor will back me up on this.

John being that I am older and have more inspections under my belt I am going to give you some fatherly advice you can take it or leave it.

You have been coming on super strong on the board as the ultimate authority on moisture intrusion with the IR camera. You appear to me as just promoting your classes rather than trying to be helpful. There are numerous members that very well remember when you enrolled in your First Ir class right along with a few others me included. I am not trying to bash you just point out what I see in your post and I think a few other are seeing the same approach.
You get real defensive if anyone mentions did you back it up with a meter.

John Relax this is a learning experience for all of us including non-camera members alike.

Perhaps I am wrong and if so will apologize in public to you.

OK... thanks for your concern.

I will continue to post images from time to time about my IR
findings, and if you like, you can continue to suspect my motives
and give me fatherly council. I don't mind.

If someone says my moisture meter and camera did not reveal
moisture, that's fine. If I respond and say they are wrong, that
is OK too. Live and let live.