EPHIS proplem or not?

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by dbowers

One other quick comment. With the high liability on EIFS - if you're not trained and certified by someone like EDI or AWCI in EIFS, you really need to identify the product and refer it to a qualified EIFS specialist.

Maybe you're just doing the test for your own benefit, but anyone thats not EIFS qualified trying to give advice to customers on whats wrong or right in an EIFS system is a walking / talking lawsuit waiting to happen.

Dan,
Good post. Thus the word ephis!

[Peter W. Bennett]

Hi temps could be due to a combo of fha duct, hot water piping, hot conductors and missing/damaged insulation void in same wall cavity.
Or, likely, but not probable, an insulation disconnect at corners where wall studs meet, no insulation present, which can allow heat to escape.

[lolsen]

Barry

Thanks for the correction. I wrote this in a hurry and screwed up.

Everybody else

Thanks for all your info but like I said in my last post I will try to find somebody to look at it that has more experience in this area and try to tag along.


Cheers
Lawrence

PS David what info would make diagnosing easier?

[lolsen]

David


The temp shows 15C and the outside temp is 10C. This will happen when the sun hits the surface for an extended period of time.

The two spots are 10C (outside) and 14C (corner).

The only other thought I have for the hot corners is no insulation in the corners. I would not see this inside either.

Another picture shows a pattern of water look at it close. Just like under the furnace exhaust.





Looks like moisture?????

Lawrence

[David A. Andersen]

It appears that you have multiple issues going on which may or may not be related to one another. There is obviously something going on the requires a formal inspection of the siding.

I can see apparent moisture patterns occurring at the eve, below the HVAC flue pipes and at the foundation or the siding is below grade.
Still, there are a lot of things that are geometrical.

There is a probability that moisture has infiltrated the wall at the eve causing excessive moisture in the stud bays which has deteriorated. The deterioration may be excessive in the corner in the installation as well as framing allowing hot air to flow throughout the affected stud bays giving us the geometrical look.

You can see where the interior floor is, both visual and thermal. There is no reason for the moisture to stop here if it is on the backside of the siding.

The area where the siding is below grade, appears to be wicking moisture from the soil. However the concrete foundation is also saturated beyond that of the siding. There may be more complicated issues here as well.

The HVAC flue pipe wall penetration appears to be leaking from the exterior penetration. High-efficiency furnace flues have a slope back towards the furnace. If the exterior flue pipe is still sloping upwards, surface water tension will cause it to flow back to the pipe penetration and possibly infiltrate the wall if not properly sealed. This could also just be air leakage from the interior. The moisture stain may just be from the upsloped flue pipe.

You should be able to see the framed wall from the crawlspace/basement, no? What did you see here?

The thermal pattern below the eave (which appears to be moisture) does not connect at the junction of the eve/siding. This area should have the greatest amount of thermal capacitance due to moisture.

The situation we are observing may be a condition in transformation. A leaking interior wall may be drying the moisture anomaly which may have occurred sometime ago. Further thermal testing is required.

You ask about what other information is needed, detailed weather records as far back as the last substantial precipitation occurrence is necessary. It is not always necessary just to know the temperature and humidity at the time of inspection, but the weather pattern that occurred prior to as well. I cut and paste the database from the National Weather Service into my report files.
Orientation of the building is critical.

Were you unable to get any thermal scans from the interior? If there is moisture damage in there we should be seeing something.

I think this situation requires a follow-up inspection under different conditions (or controlled timing under the right conditions). This is what infrared inspections is about.

You have no baseline. You have nothing to compare this with. Everything is just "apparent".

Does this condition warrant further expenditure of funds on the part of your client? Due to the size of the anomaly I would say yes.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Lawrence -

To cut through the red tape, if you have EIFS you should recommend further evaluation by an EIFS specialist due the known problems with them and all the class action lawsuits.

Are they all problematic - NO. In the past 7 years, I've 3 that had no issues.

Ignore almost everything to with the IR concerning EIFS AND get trained yourself OR refer it off to someone that is trained.

[phenderson]

Originally Posted by dbowers

Lawrence -

To cut through the red tape, if you have EIFS you should recommend further evaluation by an EIFS specialist due the known problems with them and all the class action lawsuits.

Are they all problematic - NO. In the past 7 years, I've 3 that had no issues.

Ignore almost everything to with the IR concerning EIFS AND get trained yourself OR refer it off to someone that is trained.

Agree.......the more time you put into this the more your client will expect a solution from you. Refer to an expert. I did a few EIFS evaluations before being EIFS certified and I did not realize how much I did not know. This is highly specialized stuff in both knowledge and equipment.

[David A. Andersen]

How can he refer this when he dosen't know what it is in the first place?

He finds something. It looks wrong. Until there is more to go on there is no referral justification.

To start with it is highly unlikely that it is EIFS to begin with.
There is no evidence that there are any inner wall deficiencies.
The interior IR scans do not concur with the outside.
Moisture meter on stucco is not accurate.

He has it covered.
There is someone else coming in to take a look.

Agree.......the more time you put into this the more your client will expect a solution from you.

I don't know about your clients, but mine always expect a solution from me when I make something up that is wrong with the house.

If it turns out to be nothing, you will be spending more than your time.

[phenderson]

The liability for improper diagnosis (problem or not) of these types of systems is well documented. I'm sure he has no intention of "making up something that is wrong with the house" ( I certainly don't ) , but when you start waving the red flags your clients will expect you to back it up with facts. There is nothing wrong with saying " I think a more detailed analysis by a qualifed exterior specialist is warranted. The lack of a diverter flashing is good enough reason to think there is a need for further investigation ...regardless of what the IR images say.

EIFS (Type PB, Type PM, Quick R, DEFS, Moisture Drainage, and One Coat systems are all covered by an EDI certified inspector. Our training book was 4 inches thick and you had to make a 90% or better to be certified.

IR scans of EIFS do not look like this because wall studs are visible. If it is EIFS ...even more reason to defer to an expert who is trained on the system materials, application and maintenance requirements.

The reading of the wall studs with IR does suggest this to be a DEFS system ( non insulated direct applied finish over mesh with a cement base coat) or traditional stucco ( direct applied finish over steel mesh with a cement base coat). The latter makes a non invasive moisture meter useless. A hard coat system will absorb and retain heat longer than EIFS which reflects heat. This could explain the heat patterns. If the exterior finish coat is allowing moisture to get to the cement base coat that would explain the "cooler" patterns in his images. IR is great for surveys of surfaces and should always be followed up and confirmed with other instruments and perhaps invasive measures.

Point being.....there are many possibilites here that an expert could figure out very quickly.... and the liability (should this be a major moisture damage issue) has left his "head on his shoulders" and his dignity for giving it his best shot.

[Carl A. Brown]

Hard cote stucco would explain all the dots on the studs they are staples/fastners!

[lolsen]

Thanks for all of your help. Like I said at the beginning this is the first time I ran into this problem. From all the help I received from you I now have a better chance to properly diagnose problems. Live and learn. It was good that these people won the inspection.

The house is in fact not EIFS but regular stucco. They put on some accents in the corners and gables so that threw me off.

I contacted a stucco contractor in Red Deer and he helped me out and said it is most likely water from the roof (snow melting). Put on Kick-out flashing and keep the water away from the house (just like what was mentioned on this BB).

I went back last night and the moisture appears to be going away. This image is taken about 2 hrs after sunset and it was an overcast day for the most part.



The home owners were happy with the results and said that getting the water away from the house is on there to-do list.


I hope to be doing some IR work with the stucco guy looking for moisture in houses. He was impressed to know that there was a tool that could tell that.

Thanks again you guys are great

Lawrence

[Carl A. Brown]

Lawrence,

When looking at stucco one never knows for sure where there will be moisture, but here are some reasons why it can be found in alot of places.

http://www.badstucco.com/Leaks101_files/frame.html

Good Luck!

Carl

[David A. Andersen]

it was an overcast day for the most part.

Just as a reminder, a cloudy day has little effect on IR. You will see shadows in IR just like a visual bright sunny day.