Extech I5

[Dale Duffy]

The cheaper models work pretty well here, when the outside temp might be 110 degrees and the interior home temp 75-78 degrees on average....so it does not take an expensive Cam to pick up anomalies in Phoenix-----

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dduffy

The cheaper models work pretty well here, when the outside temp might be 110 degrees and the interior home temp 75-78 degrees on average....so it does not take an expensive Cam to pick up anomalies in Phoenix-----

Remind me never to visit Phoneix in the summer...
We think 100 is hot.

[OJ Utter]

Let's take this issues that was shared on this board. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f58/little-warm-side-37088/
Now in this instance Charley took the correct actions. But even in this situation the actual temperature could be 600+ or more, we don't know because the maximum temperature of the camera was reached.
But if someone doesn't understand how a copper or aluminum connection can affect temperature measurements can be affected by emissivity then they can overlook an issue or downgrade a situation that could cause a fire. I have look at infrared connections in churches on lighting boards that were less than 3 years old that were causing lights to fail throughout the church, I have looked at lights that burnt out that shortly after inspecting has started on fire and luckily in that situation it shorted out and the business was able to turn off the circuit before more damage was done. John you obviously know the HI industry but I don't think you should down play an extremely important characteristic of this technology. When I train people it is to pass on the "professional" way to view infrared. If they choose to not take all of it into consideration that is there choice but if I don't train them properly and something bad happens then not only do I have to live with that for the rest of my life but there can be legal ramifications.
Now this example is an extreme situation but I share it because I am not talking with smoking mirrors here. I performed a scan one time for a company on their switch gear and found a connection that was behind the panel. I told them to inspect the bus bars behind the panel and they didn't. As a result one of the maintenance guys was doing maintenance on this panel and the bolts holding the bus bars came our and dropped on each other and blew the guy back. Thanks be to God that his life was spared and he was only in the hospital for 2 weeks. Now this was in industrial situation but if someone does a bigger commercial building they could run across something big like this. Or if they have a situation in a breaker box like Charley did and just bypass it. Then it could turn into a fatal situation.
I also have information that shows that the FLUKE cameras don't always come within the 1-2% that the specifications say they do. I won't share that on this blog as I am not allowed but it is true. Contact itc if you want to know what they found out.
So I disagree that an HI thermographer doesn't need to worry about this. Also to base a camera solely off of a salesman demo and the misinformation that is flying around like this is exactly the reason why I am sharing on this forum. It is an awesome thing for all involved that lower cameras are now offered but like with anything holding the professionalism to the highest degree should be considered.
Also to use the comparison of an IR thermometer to an infrared camera is not even a comparison. And just because there hasn't been any lawsuits that we know for something like this doesn't mean that there aren't ways we can stop the chance of a fire in a house. Wouldn't it be a great thing if ever few years everyone would have their electrical panels inspected by HVAC or HI or electrician. Then things like the electrical panel and wiring that burnt up in my uncles house a few years back on Christmas Eve and burnt their house down won't happen. I know we have a long way to go until that day but we all have to be doing our part to do the very best we can each and every day.
It is easy to downplay something until you have seen it up close and personal and I have.

Godspeed!
OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

[OJ Utter]

John-
I want to specifically point out that I do agree with on much of what you have said. I also think that if someone wants to buy and feels that a FLUKE camera will work for them then go for it. I personally like FLIR. In every instance I would choose a FLIR over any other camera and I don't say that only because I sell the cameras. I say that as someone who has researched all of the cameras before I started selling for FLIR. One of the biggest reasons why I did start selling for FLIR is because of the fabrication in information that I was given by the FLUKE sales person that I talked with when I considered using a FLUKE camera to save a couple thousand dollars. I have since been even more happier that I didn't go that route for my consulting business as it would have cost me more money in the long run.
I also want to point out again that I am not talking about the 80-90% of the work that HIs do, but the <10%, which is generally what gets overlooked. I also want to point out that I do not do home inspections because I do not have the knowledge that you talk about John on the construction side and that is also why I am here.

Thank You and again Godspeed!
OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

Let's take this issues that was shared on this board. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f58/little-warm-side-37088/
Now in this instance Charley took the correct actions. But even in this situation the actual temperature could be 600+ or more, we don't know because the maximum temperature of the camera was reached.

Are you saying the FLUKE would not see this?

But if someone doesn't understand how a copper or aluminum connection can affect temperature measurements can be affected by emissivity then they can overlook an issue or downgrade a situation that could cause a fire.

I think most home inspector's understand a hot conductor
needs repairs.

I have look at infrared connections in churches on lighting boards that were less than 3 years old that were causing lights to fail throughout the church, I have looked at lights that burnt out that shortly after inspecting has started on fire and luckily in that situation it shorted out and the business was able to turn off the circuit before more damage was done. John you obviously know the HI industry but I don't think you should down play an extremely important characteristic of this technology.

I fail to see how a FLUKE camera could cause a FATAL mistake.
So far, you have not addressed this question about your comments.

When I train people it is to pass on the "professional" way to view infrared. If they choose to not take all of it into consideration that is there choice but if I don't train them properly and something bad happens then not only do I have to live with that for the rest of my life but there can be legal ramifications.

How do Master Electricians take temperature measurements
without owning a FLIR IR camera? Are you saying they don't
know what they are doing or cannot function properly?

Now this example is an extreme situation but I share it because I am not talking with smoking mirrors here. I performed a scan one time for a company on their switch gear and found a connection that was behind the panel. I told them to inspect the bus bars behind the panel and they didn't. As a result one of the maintenance guys was doing maintenance on this panel and the bolts holding the bus bars came our and dropped on each other and blew the guy back. Thanks be to God that his life was spared and he was only in the hospital for 2 weeks.

I think the FLUKE camera could find this kind of defect as well, yes?

Now this was in industrial situation but if someone does a bigger commercial building they could run across something big like this.

Home inspectors very rarely do industrial electrical inspections.

Or if they have a situation in a breaker box like Charley did and just bypass it. Then it could turn into a fatal situation.

I think the FLUKE or FLIR would work fine for Charley's situation...
as far as finding the issue and turning it over to a qualified Professional for
repairs.

I also have information that shows that the FLUKE cameras don't always come within the 1-2% that the specifications say they do. I won't share that on this blog as I am not allowed but it is true. Contact itc if you want to know what they found out.

Since ITC is FLIR's training partner, I guess they might say that.
Please tell us so we can save all these lives you keep eluding to.

So I disagree that an HI thermographer doesn't need to worry about this.

The question was "show us how the FLUKE camera could cause
fatal mistakes for the home inspector" and "how do master
electricians measure temperatures if they do not own the FLIR
camera'?

Also to base a camera solely off of a salesman demo and the misinformation that is flying around like this is exactly the reason why I am sharing on this forum.

You may claim to be the source of absolute truth, but please
answer the questions.

It is an awesome thing for all involved that lower cameras are now offered but like with anything holding the professionalism to the highest degree should be considered.

You can carry that to the next level and if someone advises that
you should buy a better camera, than you presently have, then
that makes them more of a professional you... not.!

Also to use the comparison of an IR thermometer to an infrared camera is not even a comparison.

Then how do master electricians measure something without the
FLIR camera? Are you saying that all electricians and HVAC
specialist cannot function without the FLIR camera? Let's be real.

And just because there hasn't been any lawsuits that we know for something like this doesn't mean that there aren't ways we can stop the chance of a fire in a house.

So all master electricans, without a FLIR camera, are in danger of
starting house fires, because of improper temperature reading?

Wouldn't it be a great thing if ever few years everyone would have their electrical panels inspected by HVAC or HI or electrician. Then things like the electrical panel and wiring that burnt up in my uncles house a few years back on Christmas Eve and burnt their house down won't happen.

True, but most do not use the FLIR camera though. Can it be
done right without the FLIR camera?

I know we have a long way to go until that day but we all have to be doing our part to do the very best we can each and every day.
It is easy to downplay something until you have seen it up close and personal and I have.

I'm impressed. But please answer the question I originally asked,
please.

Godspeed!
OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

Please answer the questions I asked.
Thanks.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

John-
I want to specifically point out that I do agree with on much of what you have said. I also think that if someone wants to buy and feels that a FLUKE camera will work for them then go for it. I personally like FLIR.

OK... that is a little better than calling the FLUKE a FATAL mistake.


In every instance I would choose a FLIR over any other camera and I don't say that only because I sell the cameras.

OK... I am glad you sell the FLIR... good for you.


I say that as someone who has researched all of the cameras before I started selling for FLIR. One of the biggest reasons why I did start selling for FLIR is because of the fabrication in information that I was given by the FLUKE sales person that I talked with when I considered using a FLUKE camera to save a couple thousand dollars.

I have heard FLIR salesmen twist the truth as well.
Salesmen are like that sometimes.

I have since been even more happier that I didn't go that route for my consulting business as it would have cost me more money in the long run.

OK

I also want to point out again that I am not talking about the 80-90% of the work that HIs do, but the <10%, which is generally what gets overlooked.

What gets overlooked? I am waiting on the answers to
my other questions as well.... Tell us about the FATAL stuff.


I also want to point out that I do not do home inspections because I do not have the knowledge that you talk about John on the construction side and that is also why I am here.

Well... I already figured that out.

Thank You and again Godspeed!
OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

Hang around. You are welcome. I am sure you can teach me
many things. If you feel uncomfortable answering my questions,
I will not force you.

[OJ Utter]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter
Let's take this issues that was shared on this board. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f58/little-warm-side-37088/
Now in this instance Charley took the correct actions. But even in this situation the actual temperature could be 600+ or more, we don't know because the maximum temperature of the camera was reached.

Are you saying the FLUKE would not see this?

It may see what Charley did, if the inspector took the original finding that Charley found to the next level like Charley did. But he is a Level 2 and has an electrician background. If someone isn't getting trained on the importance of emissivity then they could miss it or not consider it necessary to do what he did in that situation.

But if someone doesn't understand how a copper or aluminum connection can affect temperature measurements can be affected by emissivity then they can overlook an issue or downgrade a situation that could cause a fire.

I think most home inspector's understand a hot conductor
needs repairs.

Yes but again I am talking about reflective surfaces that are handled differently. I used this situation as an example because you asked me to give you one. I agree that most would but the urgency that it would be communicated to be fixed takes someone who understands what they are dealing with. I have seen electrical connection completely disappear (and I mean no wire left) from a 200 degree connection in less than 2 days. That is why I started emailing all of those situations to the customer while I stand by the equipment.

I have look at infrared connections in churches on lighting boards that were less than 3 years old that were causing lights to fail throughout the church, I have looked at lights that burnt out that shortly after inspecting has started on fire and luckily in that situation it shorted out and the business was able to turn off the circuit before more damage was done. John you obviously know the HI industry but I don't think you should down play an extremely important characteristic of this technology.

I fail to see how a FLUKE camera could cause a FATAL mistake.
So far, you have not addressed this question about your comments.

I used these as an example of things that can fail quickly not to say that any FLUKE camera couldn't find it. But when dealing with low emissivity targets of electrical connections it can cause that. Not having the ability to adjust emissivity to 0.5 on for example a 150 connection could mean you don't understand how severe it is. And that can be a fatal mistake because of my answer to your question above.

When I train people it is to pass on the "professional" way to view infrared. If they choose to not take all of it into consideration that is there choice but if I don't train them properly and something bad happens then not only do I have to live with that for the rest of my life but there can be legal ramifications.

How do Master Electricians take temperature measurements
without owning a FLIR IR camera? Are you saying they don't
know what they are doing or cannot function properly?

A Master Electrician means that the electrician knows the code book. It does not mean that electrician knows how to deal with reading temperatures. This is not meant to be a slam but what I have seen with the electricians that I have seen. Many do not even know how to open panels on an energized system. Most electricians mainly run wires. Very few check live systems and that is something that I for 1 would like to see changes for the reasons I listed at the end of this original post. To answer you question more directly MOST don't take temperature measurements.

Now this example is an extreme situation but I share it because I am not talking with smoking mirrors here. I performed a scan one time for a company on their switch gear and found a connection that was behind the panel. I told them to inspect the bus bars behind the panel and they didn't. As a result one of the maintenance guys was doing maintenance on this panel and the bolts holding the bus bars came our and dropped on each other and blew the guy back. Thanks be to God that his life was spared and he was only in the hospital for 2 weeks.

I think the FLUKE camera could find this kind of defect as well, yes?
Not the one that we were originally talking about. That is the major difference between the purpose of the low end cameras and the higher end cameras. Spot size ratio is a necessity for this. I no longer have the image I am talking about or I would share it.

Now this was in industrial situation but if someone does a bigger commercial building they could run across something big like this.

Home inspectors very rarely do industrial electrical inspections.
Yes I understand that but some do commercial buildings where they could. Misinformation breeds more misinformation.

Or if they have a situation in a breaker box like Charley did and just bypass it. Then it could turn into a fatal situation.

I think the FLUKE or FLIR would work fine for Charley situation.
But as most who take Thermography serious like Charley does (I say this because I have visited with him) he has chosen to use a FLIR. I also know people who have been forced to purchase FLUKE cameras because of the cheaper price who refuse to use it and have purchased a FLIR because it is considered the camera of choice by professional thermographers. Again I say this as one No I'm not an HI and no I am not saying the next camera up in FLUKE would not work but I would never recommend someone buy the low end camera from a professional standpoint after what I have seen.

I also have information that shows that the FLUKE cameras don't always come within the 1-2% that the specifications say they do. I won't share that on this blog as I am not allowed but it is true. Contact itc if you want to know what they found out.

Since ITC is FLIR's training partner, I guess they might say that.
Please tell us so we can save all these lives you keep eluding to.
Yes they are, but they have trained people using FLUKE Cameras too. And again I am talking about misunderstanding the elements you can deal with on low emissivity targets like some electrical connections. Is this going to be a situation that you see very often. NO, but you can and need to understand its importance.

So I disagree that an HI thermographer doesn't need to worry about this.

The question was "show us how the FLUKE camera could cause
fatal mistakes for the home inspector" and "how do master
electricians measure temperatures if they do not own the FLIR
camera'?
Now your original post talked about the low end FLUKE which does not have the ability to correct for emissivity. And unless you coat the target with a high emissivity material the connection could be misdiagnosed. And since I don't know the training method that you use to deal with emissivity I can't speak to that. I also don't know how anyone would train someone to deal with something they can't adjust. I teach it regardless of the situation and it is the students choice to use it or not use it. So whether it be a FLUKE, FLIR, or whatever knowledge of it should be addressed. That is a Core Thermography characteristic.

Also to base a camera solely off of a salesman demo and the misinformation that is flying around like this is exactly the reason why I am sharing on this forum.

You may claim to be the source of absolute truth, but please
answer the questions.
Have I been more clear for you in this round of answers? I didn't think I was being that vague so I apologize if I was.

It is an awesome thing for all involved that lower cameras are now offered but like with anything holding the professionalism to the highest degree should be considered.

You can carry that to the next level and if someone advises that
you should buy a better camera, than you presently have, then
that makes them more of a professional... not.!
That would depend on what I was dealing with. Can you do a good job with a low end camera, yes. But the whole purpose of this original post was to ask if an i5 was a good starter camera, and in my opinion I would use it as a starter before the other if that is all the more money I had to spend, but as someone else put it and as I think many others have said- it is better to spend the extra money and get a more functionable camera that gives you the ability to adjust for emissivity if you have to. That is my opinion. If it isn't yours then you have the right to your opinion, but so do I.

Also to use the comparison of an IR thermometer to an infrared camera is not even a comparison.

Then how do master electricians measure something without the
FLIR camera? Are you saying that all electricians and HVAC
specialist cannot function without the FLIR camera? Let's be real.
NO I think that in the original post I said that I would recommend they use the i5 for what they are doing. That is where I would use it. But here I said that the purpose of an ir thermometer is a feel good situation and shouldn't be used as a tool to determine correct temperature. I have put them side by side with an IR Camera and most of the time the electrician wants to know why his temperature is lower and I have even had times when they have said that they IR Camera was wrong. AGAIN misinformation breeds misinformation.

And just because there hasn't been any lawsuits that we know for something like this doesn't mean that there aren't ways we can stop the chance of a fire in a house.

So all master electricans, without a FLIR camera, are in danger of
starting house fires, because of improper temperature reading?
I didn't say that. I have yet to be shown an incident where someone had an arc flash from in infrared scan but infrared thermographers are required to wear the suits for electrical inspections now. But the point of it is if we can save 1 life or even 1 home then wouldn't that be a good thing?

Wouldn't it be a great thing if ever few years everyone would have their electrical panels inspected by HVAC or HI or electrician. Then things like the electrical panel and wiring that burnt up in my uncles house a few years back on Christmas Eve and burnt their house down won't happen.

True, but most do not use the FLIR camera though. Can it be
done right without the FLIR camera?
It can but using one would be that much better. And if they would do an inspection every 5 years or so because electrical connections looseness up over time. That is what started the whole insurance industry in requiring industrial infrared inspections be performed on an annual basis. I have even found many companies now require a thermal scan when a new building is built.
Wouldn't that be a good thing for every new home if that were law. An Infrared scan be performed to insure furnaces, water heaters, electrical, insulation, etc... all were in good order. Or if home inspection was required on all home sales and all HI's would own in infrared camera.

I know we have a long way to go until that day but we all have to be doing our part to do the very best we can each and every day.
It is easy to downplay something until you have seen it up close and personal and I have.

I'm impressed. But please answer the question I originally asked,
please.
Again if a 150 degree 0.5 or lower emissivity object is shot without the ability to adjust for it, then the the true temperature can not be known.
Here is a test for you. Take a low emissivity and put hot water in it. Now read the temperature on it. Set the background temperature to the proper reflected temperature and lower the emissivity to 0.5 and see the difference it makes. This will only give you a mild understanding of what I am talking about if you don't understand.

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

It may see what Charley did, if the inspector took the original finding that Charley found to the next level like Charley did. But he is a Level 2 and has an electrician background. If someone isn't getting trained on the importance of emissivity then they could miss it or not consider it necessary to do what he did in that situation.

If someone finds an electrical fault and turns it over to an electrician
for further evaluation and repairs, that is all that is required of a
home inspector. It does not take Level 2 to do that.


Yes but again I am talking about reflective surfaces that are handled differently. I used this situation as an example because you asked me to give you one. I agree that most would but the urgency that it would be communicated to be fixed takes someone who understands what they are dealing with. I have seen electrical connection completely disappear (and I mean no wire left) from a 200 degree connection in less than 2 days. That is why I started emailing all of those situations to the customer while I stand by the equipment.

If someone finds an electrical fault and turns it over to an electrician
for further evaluation and repairs, that is all that is required of a
home inspector. Happens everyday.

I used these as an example of things that can fail quickly not to say that any FLUKE camera couldn't find it. But when dealing with low emissivity targets of electrical connections it can cause that. Not having the ability to adjust emissivity to 0.5 on for example a 150 connection could mean you don't understand how severe it is. And that can be a fatal mistake because of my answer to your question above.

Anyone with a lick of common sense could see that conductor
was too hot. Let's get real. It would not take all kinds of
adjustments to know that. Just the pattern would tell you that
there was a problem.

A Master Electrician means that the electrician knows the code book. It does not mean that electrician knows how to deal with reading temperatures. This is not meant to be a slam but what I have seen with the electricians that I have seen. Many do not even know how to open panels on an energized system. Most electricians mainly run wires. Very few check live systems and that is something that I for 1 would like to see changes for the reasons I listed at the end of this original post. To answer you question more directly MOST don't take temperature measurements.

So your saying without a FLIR camera that master electricians
are making FATAL mistakes and cannot deal with electrical
hot spots? Your starting to get out into left field.


Not the one that we were originally talking about. That is the major difference between the purpose of the low end cameras and the higher end cameras. Spot size ratio is a necessity for this. I no longer have the image I am talking about or I would share it.

You mentioned Charlies example and already agreed the FLUKE
could see it. You cannot show us an example that ONLY the
FLIR camera could see, and everyone else would be making
FATAL mistakes unless they owned the FLIR.

Yes I understand that but some do commercial buildings where they could. Misinformation breeds more misinformation.

HOME inspectors do not train for or do industrial electrical
examinations. You are not a home inspector and therefore
you do not know this. The few that do, can see a hot spot.
Lets be real.

But as most who take Thermography serious like Charley does (I say this because I have visited with him) he has chosen to use a FLIR. I also know people who have been forced to purchase FLUKE cameras because of the cheaper price who refuse to use it and have purchased a FLIR because it is considered the camera of choice by professional thermographers. Again I say this as one No I'm not an HI and no I am not saying the next camera up in FLUKE would not work but I would never recommend someone buy the low end camera from a professional standpoint after what I have seen.

I have seen people trade in their FLIR to buy a FLUKE. To
insinuate that those who buy the FLIR are superior is a joke.
I teach inspectors who own FLIR cameras all the time, that
admit they do not know what they are doing. The FLUKE
has better resolution than the FLIR and produces a superior
fusion image. I think both are good and can do the job.

Yes they are, but they have trained people using FLUKE Cameras too. And again I am talking about misunderstanding the elements you can deal with on low emissivity targets like some electrical connections. Is this going to be a situation that you see very often. NO, but you can and need to understand its importance.

So far you have not shown the FATAL mistakes that you claim
those who do not use the FLIR will be making. You even
talk down about Master Electricians as though they do not
know what they are doing. Try to be humble.

Now your original post talked about the low end FLUKE which does not have the ability to correct for emissivity. And unless you coat the target with a high emissivity material the connection could be misdiagnosed. And since I don't know the training method that you use to deal with emissivity I can't speak to that. I also don't know how anyone would train someone to deal with something they can't adjust. I teach it regardless of the situation and it is the students choice to use it or not use it. So whether it be a FLUKE, FLIR, or whatever knowledge of it should be addressed. That is a Core Thermography characteristic.

Again, you have not show the FATAL mistakes people are
making without the FLIR camera. Show me. Hot connections
are not hard to see, especially if you claim to be talking about
those that have reached the level of being FATAL. Your
dancing around the question, because your trying too hard
to sell the mystical FLIR as though we are all in danger
without it.

How do Master Electricians avoid the FATAL mistakes
with hot connections, if they do not own a FLIR?

Have I been more clear for you in this round of answers? I didn't think I was being that vague so I apologize if I was.

No... you have offered no FATAL examples.
None.

That would depend on what I was dealing with. Can you do a good job with a low end camera, yes. But the whole purpose of this original post was to ask if an i5 was a good starter camera, and in my opinion I would use it as a starter before the other if that is all the more money I had to spend, but as someone else put it and as I think many others have said- it is better to spend the extra money and get a more functionable camera that gives you the ability to adjust for emissivity if you have to. That is my opinion. If it isn't yours then you have the right to your opinion, but so do I.

Use the camera that works for the job you need to do, just as
you said. The i5 does not do the job a home inspector needs
to do. The FLUKE TiR and FLUKE b40 work well. Both can
see an electrical hot spot very very well.

NO I think that in the original post I said that I would recommend they use the i5 for what they are doing. That is where I would use it. But here I said that the purpose of an ir thermometer is a feel good situation and shouldn't be used as a tool to determine correct temperature. I have put them side by side with an IR Camera and most of the time the electrician wants to know why his temperature is lower and I have even had times when they have said that they IR Camera was wrong. AGAIN misinformation breeds misinformation.

But you fail to see the simplicity of the fact that it is not hard
to tell when something is too hot. Master Electricians do not
need a temperature measurement down to 100th of a degree
to figure out the darn wire is too hot and needs repairs. Your
making something that is simple sound like people cannot discern
what needs repaired unless they can measure it with a FLIR.

Thousands of electrical repairs are done everyday without
the FLIR. The home inspector does not even need to know
why or how to fix it. All they have to do is recommend it
be evaluated and repaired by a qualified Electrician.

By now, you should have shown us the FATAL mistakes
we are all missing without the FLIR. But you have not.
Your bluffing now.

I didn't say that. I have yet to be shown an incident where someone had an arc flash from in infrared scan but infrared thermographers are required to wear the suits for electrical inspections now. But the point of it is if we can save 1 life or even 1 home then wouldn't that be a good thing?

Finding an electrical hot spot is not hard my friend.
You know that.

True, but most do not use the FLIR camera though. Can it be
done right without the FLIR camera?

It can

You said it... YES IT CAN.
Electrical inspections and
repairs can be done right
without a FLIR.

We AGREE... now that was not that hard was it?

Again if a 150 degree 0.5 or lower emissivity object is shot without the ability to adjust for it, then the the true temperature can not be known.
Here is a test for you. Take a low emissivity and put hot water in it. Now read the temperature on it. Set the background temperature to the proper reflected temperature and lower the emissivity to 0.5 and see the difference it makes. This will only give you a mild understanding of what I am talking about if you don't understand.

I will take your example. If a lug nut (low emissivity) is 150 F,
then the darn wire it connects with will be very hot also. The wire
coating has high emissivity and shows up very well. OH...
and don't forget... YOU CAN TOUCH the breaker and it it will
be hot too. AS YOU SAID ALREADY... IT CAN BE DONE...
without a FLIR.

The home inspector does not even have to document the
temperature.!!! All he has to do is report that their is
excessive heat at the connection point (or whatever).
He is not required to do a scientific analysis or mathematical
equation with the readings.

In some cases he can touch a hot breaker and report that
it is hot to the touch. That is enough to call for repairs.

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

There is life without FLIR

BTW... I own and operate a FLIR... so I know it is a good camera,
but I do not worship it or sell them like you do. Home inspectors
are not required to be scientist to find a defect, and they are
not required to know all the causes of why something is a defect.
Their job is to report it and turn it over to a specialist.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

There is life without FLIR

BTW... I own and operate a FLIR... so I know it is a good camera,
but I do not worship it or sell them like you do. Home inspectors
are not required to be scientist to find a defect, and they are
not required to know all the causes of why something is a defect.
Their job is to report it and turn it over to a specialist.

John,

No, You now worship Fluke, I wonder why?
Home Inspectors ARE required being Building Scientists and they should have a pretty good idea of what causes defects. Thermographers ARE the specialists!!
Flir is the best camera on the market, ITC is the best training facility on the face of the planet, Toronto is the best city in the world, and NACHI is the best HI association in North America!! See my point?
When I trained with Flir they did not "Push" Flir cameras on students, in fact they trained students with other camera makes and models. My question to you John is why are you pushing the Fluke cameras on your students? In doing so you are doing them a huge disservice and for what, a savings of a few hundred dollars.

BTW Can we get some feed back from those Inspectors that use Fluke in terms of Battery life, weight, resolution etc.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

I also have information that shows that the FLUKE cameras don't always come within the 1-2% that the specifications say they do. I won't share that on this blog as I am not allowed but it is true. Contact itc if you want to know what they found out.

Must be talking about the NETD.

Noise Equivalent Temperature Difference, normally taken at an object temp of 30 Celsius if taken at e.g. 50 Celsius the temperature value will be lower (better). Sometimes used to make a system look better than it really is.

I looked into this and Fluke does not do this, but I'm sure other manufactures do, and in doing so they deceive the buying public.

[OJ Utter]

John-
I am not a worshiper either but promote what I think is the best. We have gone down a path here that has gotten us further from the point so I will find the paper that gives a better description of what I am talking about when I get back off the road- Emissivity. It is not a FLIR vs. FLUKE thing but a Emissivity vs. Not even the ability to input Emissivity thing that I am making the point off of.

That is enough for now.

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

[Kevin Luce]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

Again if a 150 degree 0.5 or lower emissivity object is shot without the ability to adjust for it, then the the true temperature can not be known.
Here is a test for you. Take a low emissivity and put hot water in it. Now read the temperature on it. Set the background temperature to the proper reflected temperature and lower the emissivity to 0.5 and see the difference it makes. This will only give you a mild understanding of what I am talking about if you don't understand.

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

I have the Fluke TIR. If there is something that I'm questioning, I take a few pictures of it and make changes to the emissivity and anything else with the Fluke software. I was shown and told that every option that is on the TIR1 camera can be found in the software. So for those <10% of items that I would likely question, all I have to do is go back to the office to get a better understanding.

Please note that I've only had my IR camera for less than a year and use it only for home inspections.

Note: I like the Fluke. There are only two things that I liked about the Flir that Fluke doesn't have - the smaller size and the laser pointer. Besides that, I think the Fluke TIR camera is a fine IR camera and I wouldn't pick anything better than the Fluke TIR1 for doing home inspections.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

John,

No, You now worship Fluke, I wonder why?
Home Inspectors ARE required being Building Scientists and they should have a pretty good idea of what causes defects. Thermographers ARE the specialists!!

Thermographers are not specialist in every field.. ie..HVAC,
Electrical, etc. Home inspectors with an IR camera are not
required to dismantle the HVAC system or dismantle the Electrical
system to trace down defects.

To say a home inspector should have a "PRETTY GOOD IDEA"
is not the same thing as a "SCIENTIST". So you will need to
decide which way you want to say it.

Flir is the best camera on the market, ITC is the best training facility on the face of the planet, Toronto is the best city in the world, and NACHI is the best HI association in North America!! See my point?

I own a FLIR, I went to ITC, but that is not the issue. I am
debating the point that this man is saying... "to use a FLUKE
camera will cause FATAL mistakes"... which is ridiculous.

Regarding Toronto being the best city in the world, you have
not lived in Texas... so I forgive you (smile ).

When I trained with Flir they did not "Push" Flir cameras on students, in fact they trained students with other camera makes and models. My question to you John is why you are pushing the Fluke cameras on your students?

Ask my students... I tell them to buy FLUKE or FLIR.
But I am not going to agree with the idea that a FLUKE camera
is causing FATAL mistakes... it is just not true. It's silly.


In doing so you are doing them a huge disservice and for what, a savings of a few hundred dollars.

More like a savings of $1200.00 on the low end camera (TiR vs B40)

The FLUKE does just fine for the home inspector. The FLIR is good too.

BTW Can we get some feed back from those Inspectors that use Fluke in terms of Battery life, weight, resolution etc.

The battery life works well enough, the extra size is a plus to those
who want to have a bigger screen, and the FLUKE TiR has better
resolution than the FLIR b40. The FLUKE users love their cameras.

I happen to use a FLIR myself, and love it.

We both agree that NACHI is the greatest.
I do not sell IR cameras.. BTW

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

John-
I am not a worshiper either but promote what I think is the best. We have gone down a path here that has gotten us further from the point so I will find the paper that gives a better description of what I am talking about when I get back off the road- Emissivity. It is not a FLIR vs. FLUKE thing but a Emissivity vs. Not even the ability to input Emissivity thing that I am making the point off of.

That is enough for now.

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer
www.utterprecision.com

The issue is the word FATAL.

If FLUKE operators are out there making FATAL mistakes when
they look at electrical systems, then master electricians are
too. They do not use a FLIR camera most of the time either.

You have not dealt with this ridiculous statement.
Why? You cannot demonstrate that everyone without a
FLIR is making FATAL mistakes. Your wrong. Period.

You even admit that these analysis CAN be done with the
FLUKE, within the home inspector application. All the
home inspector has to do is report something is too hot
and needs repairs by a qualified Professional.

Home inspectors and electricians have been using IR
thermometers for years to document temperatures
in order to diagnose which defect needs repairs. The
tolerance levels of these tools works fine for this purpose.
The FLUKE works just fine as well.

We are looking at more than the head of a lug nut when
a hot spot is detected. Duh. Save your emissivity
papers for someone who needs it. I have already
learned those concepts.

[John McKenna]

Someone please show us ONE example of someone who did not
own a FLIR camera, and documented an electrical hot spot with
other methods, as a home inspector... and they made a FATAL
mistake.

Please, just one example.

We need to help this guy out, he cannot find one.