Flir b Series vs. i Series?

[OJ Utter]

Scott-

Give me a little bit here and I will go see if I can take some video with my T250 seeing how as it is also a 9Hz so you can see the refresh rate in action.

Dan- My mistake on the sensitivity. It is 0.08 on the b60. The i60 is still very sensitive as it is more about the pixels. What the sensitivity does more than anything is it decrease your spot size for ifov. I have been wanting to calculate this but just haven't done it, but when you are wanting to go to that level you'll have to do more than find the best cheapest Level 1 course on through the internet.
Till then here are some images I took the other day to dial into this whole which is better thing. The 1st is from an i40, the 2nd a b60, the 3rd a T250, and the 4th a T400. All of which by the way I need to sell. Email me if you want to know more.



OJ Utter
Level III itc Thermographer
oj@upivib.com

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

Scott-

Give me a little bit here and I will go see if I can take some video with my T250 seeing how as it is also a 9Hz so you can see the refresh rate in action.

Dan- My mistake on the sensitivity. It is 0.08 on the b60. The i60 is still very sensitive as it is more about the pixels. What the sensitivity does more than anything is it decrease your spot size for ifov. I have been wanting to calculate this but just haven't done it, but when you are wanting to go to that level you'll have to do more than find the best cheapest Level 1 course on through the internet.
Till then here are some images I took the other day to dial into this whole which is better thing. The 1st is from an i40, the 2nd a b60, the 3rd a T250, and the 4th a T400. All of which by the way I need to sell. Email me if you want to know more.



OJ Utter
Level III itc Thermographer
oj@upivib.com

OJ,

I like the resolution on the T400 but for 20 grand, I'll stick with my B2.

[John Snell]

Originally Posted by sgilligan1

Found that both the Flir and Fluke lower end models have a 9 Hz refresh rate. Guess that means it will take a little longer to do a large flat roof.

A 9Hz refresh rate really has no bearing on how long it takes to conduct an inspection. It simply means that as you pan across a scene there is a slight blur. A blur also occurs with a 30Hz or 60Hz camera but it is less. In my experience you will not notice any appreciable problem at 9Hz.

Thermally yours,

John Snell
ASNT NDT Thermal/Infrared Level III #48166
Snell Infrared
800-636-9820
802-229-9820
http://www.thesnellgroup.com
http://www.IRTalk.com
http://www.learnnewsolutions.com/

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by John Snell

A 9Hz refresh rate really has no bearing on how long it takes to conduct an inspection. It simply means that as you pan across a scene there is a slight blur. A blur also occurs with a 30Hz or 60Hz camera but it is less. In my experience you will not notice any appreciable problem at 9Hz.

Thermally yours,

John Snell
ASNT NDT Thermal/Infrared Level III #48166
Snell Infrared
800-636-9820
802-229-9820
http://www.thesnellgroup.com
http://www.IRTalk.com
http://www.learnnewsolutions.com/

"Thermally yours"

That signature is so cool. I like it.

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by sgilligan1

I am looking to finally break down and buy a camera in the next couple of months and am pretty set on getting a Flir. I am looking at 4 different models and haven't decided on what major features I want. I am a little confused about the i Series and b Series. They specs look like they are exactly the same cameras except in a different color casing. I am not seeing any real decernable difference between the two series.

For the record I am comparing the ThermaCAM SD vs. the InfraCAM SD and the i40 vs. the b40 models.

Can someone please tell me what the differences are between series that would make one better than the other for building envelope diagnostics?

Thanks

I'm in the 6 month range for purchasing an IR cam ....and this thread is making my head hurt!

[David A. Andersen]

Wait till you go to school..........

[OJ Utter]

Chris- I know it is a little crazy with more cameras out in the market now than car models rolling off the assembly lines. If you would like to discuss this when it comes time that you want to but please give me a call. I will be glad to talk with you about it.

Scott- I finally got the video to upload somewhere. Please know that this video does not at all do justice to what is really coming out of the camera. I used a new digital recorder that I got and it didn't transfer very good to youtube. Any way you can see what John Snell was talking about with the blurring.
This video is from the 9Hz T250 (same refresh rate as the b-Series Cameras).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTggTbkA8MA
This video is from the 30Hz T400 (I tried to go the same speed in the scan but didn't accomplish that. You should get the idea though that it really doesn't affect what you are doing or slow down your job.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3KA_hLFcN4

All in all if you are looking in the 5k range either go with a b50 or give me a call and we can talk about the Demo b60 I need to sell.

OJ Utter
Level III itc Thermographer
402-534-3513
oj@upivib.com

[Jim Seffrin]

Scott:

Purchasing a thermal imager can be a daunting task even for experienced thermographers. Two of the biggest reasons for this challenge are the vast array of imagers that are currently available and the lack of standards governing their construction and performance.

While objective specs like thermal sensitivity and resolution are frequently offered, they often are misleading as manufacturers are not required to follow standardized test procedures in producing their test values. Furthermore, these test values are produced under ideal laboratory conditions that can differ greatly from actual field conditions where the imager is used.

Rather than rush your imager purchase, I would respectfully offer the folllowing advice:

Take an infrared training class BEFORE your buy your equipment. Doing so will enable you to ask the right questions and can help you to make an informed decision. We cover this very topic in both our Level I Certified Infrared Thermographer® and IR Inspections for Home & Building Inspectors courses. Both are being offered this month in Mount Laurel, NJ. They are also available through our Distance Learning Program.

Prior to purchasing any imager, be certain to give it a 'test drive' by taking into the field under the exact same conditions you expect to encounter in the future. This is the only way to prove that a particluar imager is right for you and how features such as frame rate will affect you.

You may also find the following articles and Tips of use:

Selecting, Specifying, and Purchasing Thermal Imagers
The Importance of Imager Frame Rate
Training & Equipment: Which First?


Please feel free to give me a call should you have any questions or if we can be of further assistance.

[Jason Kaylor]

The i40, i50, b40 and b50 all have the same thermal sensitivity. The main differences between the two is the color of the unit, yellow vs red, the dew and moisture alarms, and the temp ranges (already covered in this thread) The second of which you will rarely use with IR training (I consider it a must anyway).

I usually tell customers to go with the I series in case the need ever arises to do commercial electrical, motors or hvac systems. You may not do them now, but if people know you do infrared you will be shocked what you get asked to do. I have heard from a few different customers of people calling wanting paranormal infrared research done....I say CHARGE EM, hehe.

The B60 and TiR1 are your major choices, in my opinion. Most differences have been covered in this thread except what I consider pretty important ones. 2 year warranty on the TiR1 vs 1 year on the B60. Check out the smartview 2.0 software in the TiR1 link in my sig, it is impressive to say the least.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Blower Door / Duct

[David A. Andersen]

2 year warranty on the TiR1 vs 1 year on the B60.

I hate warrantees!
Warrantees are seldom the same in comparison.
However, they are a necessity.

I would be interesting in knowing the number of warranty claims made against either manufacturer.

I know of several instances where Flir cameras encountered accidents that would not be covered by any warranty, but kept on working without the need of a warranty.

To decide on purchasing a piece of equipment because of a better warranty does not fit my criteria. The fact that the cameras manufacturer owns the companies that make each and every part within the camera (quality control) and that almost every commercial and military application for infrared is manufactured by that company holds a little bit more weight for me.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by dvalley

I own the Flir B-2 (with the wide angle lens) which has a better resolution than the B-Cams.

If you're interested in comparing the two cameras, I can email you a .PDF with comparisons on the B-2 and the B-Cams.

The B2 is a great camera mainly due to the ability to interchange lenses at a later point if the user decides to add it on. However, the resolution is 160x120, which is the same as the TiR and TiR1, lower than the B60 (180x180), same as the B50 (140x140) and higher than the B40 (120x120). It is also lower than the B200 and B250 both of which also have the interchangable lenses.

The thermal sensitivity of .1C is also not as good as the B60 (.0, B200 and B250 (.0 and the leader of the thermal sensitivity pack for these cameras the TiR1 (.07). It is equal to the B40, B50 and TiR.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Blower Door / Duct

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by dandersen

The fact that the cameras manufacturer owns the companies that make each and every part within the camera (quality control) and that almost every commercial and military application for infrared is manufactured by that company holds a little bit more weight for me.

http://investors.flir.com/sec.cfm?Do...nual&Year=2008

Almost no major US company makes everything in house these days. They would get lambasted in the modern world markets.

The technology used in military applications will not find its way into our hands for many years to come, if even then. Uncooled microbolometers are a very recent introduction in to that hands of regular citizens.

Both companies are very respected in their own right. FLIR is the world leader in infrared systems hands down. Fluke is one of the most respected, if not the world leader in test and measurement. They finally crossed each others path. Even more so now that FLIR bought Extech.

FLIR's infrared world is being invaded by Fluke, and Fluke's test and measurement world is being invaded by Extech/FLIR.

Personally I feel they both have their advantages and disadvantages and it matters what price point, and what you need a camera to do and not do.

I will tell you this much, if you are in to investing FLIR stock is the place to be. The last two quarters they have increased revenue by 60% and 40% respectively. Their stock however is not moving because of the rest of the market. When the rebound comes, and with the Obama administration really pushing "green" technologies, it should take off.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Blower Door / Duct

[Peter W. Bennett]

John, send me a pm too.
thanks,
Peter

[OJ Utter]

Jason- Do you really know the company you are distributing cameras for? FLIR does make the parts in house, at least the ones that are the most important for the camera- the wafers and lenses. That is why they are at least 2 generations a head of FLUKE in the detectors.

And outside of the low end cameras, the fact that FLIR's technology is based on the military cameras is why they can't be exported outside of the US. This whole concept a company that only makes infrared cameras is why FLIR has been around for 40+ years making infrared cameras.

There aren't very many professional thermographers in the business that will recommend a FLUKE over a FLIR. I have even had numerous FLUKE people say they know the FLIR camera is a better camera- more ergonomic, more accurate, more user friendly. Why don't you tell everyone how many clicks it takes a FLUKE camera to change the temperature span manually. Have you ever taken the camera out to try to do a full days work with it? Have you ever put the cameras side by side and used them? This really isn't a Ford vs. Chevy comparison like your trying to make it out to be.
Why do you think there are so many i20s for sale on ebay for a fraction of there original cost brand new. Yes the i25 and Tr1 are improvements over their older models but they don't even compare in my professional opinion as a thermographer. FLUKE is the biggest reason why I started selling cameras in the area where I live. Most of the time those who are selling FLUKE cameras either don't know the technology or purposely hide the flaws. Like say the battery life and file size. They tell people the FLIR software can only be loaded on 1 computer, when that is a flat out lie.
I apologize for the outburst here but pick a side of the fence and stop the sales double talk. That is what confuses so many people new to the industry and results in them buying a camera that within 2 years they will wish they hadn't. For some that realization comes much sooner- like when they have a problem with the camera.
Oh yeah the 3D thing in the software is something that I in 9 years operating a camera can't thing of a single time when that would have been useful. Reporter Pro has stuff like that too and unless I am playing around I rarely use them.
One last comment and then I will go have some coffee and calm down. The comment made about buying an i-Series because you won't use the insulation or dewpoint, shows you don't understand the technology or how to use it. That is just another salesman comment that really blurs the lines.
I won't speak for the rest here other than to ask of those of you that have b-Series cameras do you use the insulation and dewpoint alarms to quick identify those areas?

OJ Utter
Level 3 itc Thermographer

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by OJ Utter

I apologize for the outburst here...

Apology accepted.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door