Fluke Tir & Tir1

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jkaylor

What was this Fluke's technicians name?

So why would Fluke put in their datasheets that it is 5%? If it was 2% they would advertise such, it is only to their benefit.

They indicate the extreme margin because some people may take
temperatures of reflective surfaces.

Your previous post in this thread said it is 2% when the target has high reflectivity, your last post said high emissivity.

In post #9 I said...

The FLUKE TiR has an accuracy for the spot temperature
measurement of +-2 % when measuring high emisssivty
areas like the plastic and rubber associated with residential
breakers and romex wire.

Read it again.


When does this magical 2% happen? Because according to the actual manufature, not a level I, II, III, the superbowl champions, Pete Rose, or Obamas opinion matters much to me when the company making the product says 5%.

The FLUKE TiR has a emissivity setting of .95, so when looking
at plastics with high emissivity (usually in the .92-.96 range),
then the accuracy is very close.

And yes I am a salesman, and an authorized distributor for Fluke and Fluke Thermography. But I am not misrepresenting the product here, or anywhere for that matter. The original poster wanted to know the differences between the two units. The accuracy number you are giving him is incorrect.

No, my measurements have been verified.

If your information was the final straw in the camels back to make him pull the trigger on a TiR he would be very upset if he needed the unit to perform in a way that you are advertising it does, when it doesn't.

Many of my students have purchased the FLUKE TiR and they
are sending me glowing reports about its function.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

Go check it out and verify it.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

What type of Camera did he have John?

It was a $30,000 FLIR model.

BTW... most Level III thermographers in north American cannot
do a home inspection. Nothing special about that.

Perhaps you might learn how some day.

[hlorenz]

OK I have one for ya... I want to get one of these cameras to bolster my business. Not many of the inspectors in my area have these things. There is a cam that Professional Equipment.com has for 2995... Its a basic thermal camera. My business is a part time venture, I am full time Active Duty Air Force. Would it be better cost wise due to the fact that I dont bring in that much annual revenue to invest in this cheaper camera, or should I try to get something more expensive... I noticed the cost of the training, that will have to come next year!!!

I have been trying to find one of these things used, but they are just not out there...

Advise?

[ldapkus]

Originally Posted by hlorenz

OK I have one for ya... I want to get one of these cameras to bolster my business. Not many of the inspectors in my area have these things. There is a cam that Professional Equipment.com has for 2995... Its a basic thermal camera. My business is a part time venture, I am full time Active Duty Air Force. Would it be better cost wise due to the fact that I dont bring in that much annual revenue to invest in this cheaper camera, or should I try to get something more expensive... I noticed the cost of the training, that will have to come next year!!!

I have been trying to find one of these things used, but they are just not out there...

Advise?

Save your money for a better camera. If you don't have funds for training until next year,there's no sense in buying a cheap IR imager now. Save your money a few more years and get the camera and training at the same time.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

It was a $30,000 FLIR model.

BTW... most Level III thermographers in north American cannot
do a home inspection. Nothing special about that.

Perhaps you might learn how some day.

At least we now know it was a $30K camera and it was a Flir. Let's see if you can be more specific with this question. Who certified this Level 3 Thermographer?

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

At least we now know it was a $30K camera and it was a Flir. Let's see if you can be more specific with this question. Who certified this Level 3 Thermographer?

The guy won both the camera and the level III cert from a raffel at the AVN conference they do during the World of Concrete show in Vegas.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[kweiss]

Originally Posted by hlorenz

OK I have one for ya... I want to get one of these cameras to bolster my business. Not many of the inspectors in my area have these things. There is a cam that Professional Equipment.com has for 2995... Its a basic thermal camera. My business is a part time venture, I am full time Active Duty Air Force. Would it be better cost wise due to the fact that I dont bring in that much annual revenue to invest in this cheaper camera, or should I try to get something more expensive... I noticed the cost of the training, that will have to come next year!!!

I have been trying to find one of these things used, but they are just not out there...

Advise?

What Linus said. Without reopening the whole specification debate, there is a definite minimum reasonable usability limit for these cameras. There is something to the advice you might have seen on here about buying the most expensive unit you can afford. You could argue that you could make the 3K camera work, but you would be very limited by the thermal conditions you would need to be effective - ie you would need natural EXTREME differentials to see much of anything with the really cheap cameras. Which unfortunately leaves many days when you would be near blind with it, and reduces having one to a marketing gimick.

IMHO, it is better to save your money and wait to buy something a little better that can actually normally work as advertised for your business and the training to go with it.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

At least we now know it was a $30K camera and it was a Flir. Let's see if you can be more specific with this question. Who certified this Level 3 Thermographer?

He was a FLIR - ITC level III thermographer.

It is not suprising, most level III guys do not come out of the
ranks of construction.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jkaylor

The guy won both the camera and the level III cert from a raffel at the AVN conference they do during the World of Concrete show in Vegas.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

I noticed that you mock my comments allot and are short on facts.
Your really making points as a funny salesman... but we need more
than canned talking points and mocking.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I noticed that you mock my comments allot and are short on facts.
Your really making points as a funny salesman... but we need more
than canned talking points and mocking.

Why do you keep referring to a salesman as a negative?

Just horsing around John, sorry if you took it as me mocking you. Mario asked you for the Flir model and the thermographiers name, you didn't address it, so I added something crazy.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by kweiss

What Linus said. Without reopening the whole specification debate, there is a definite minimum reasonable usability limit for these cameras. There is something to the advice you might have seen on here about buying the most expensive unit you can afford. You could argue that you could make the 3K camera work, but you would be very limited by the thermal conditions you would need to be effective - ie you would need natural EXTREME differentials to see much of anything with the really cheap cameras. Which unfortunately leaves many days when you would be near blind with it, and reduces having one to a marketing gimick.

IMHO, it is better to save your money and wait to buy something a little better that can actually normally work as advertised for your business and the training to go with it.

And to add to Kevins comment a little. Resnet, and I am sure BPI will soon follow are coming up with an infrared standard. This will include camera minimum specifications. John Snell is the one, from my knowledge, that is working with Resnet on both the cameras and the applications as far as the Resnet infrared standard. If John sees this I am sure he would be able to chime in with more information on the subject.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I went on a home inspection with a level III thermographer. He had a $30,000 camera.
All I had was a BCAM. I found more defects than he did.

John,

Nobody is mocking you brother, I have no doubt that you found more defects but you are mocking a certified Level 3 Thermographer and 30K camera, which BTW you have failed to identify the model. I have a B360 and I challenge anyone with a Fluke Tir or a Tir1 or a BCAM-SD to find more defects than I can. My instructor at ITC was Paul Frisk (one of the best) and he is a Structural Engineer and a Level 3. I would think he knows a thing or two about Building Science!

I have to go, I have to scan a building for a water intrusion issue at a municipal building just north of Toronto!!

[William Warner]

If you market your new found technology correctly, clients will come out of the wood work from all walks of life seeking your services because they see that you have the technology they need. And you will be tempted to take on every job that comes your way. But if you do not have a capable imager or the background knowledge (beyond pattern and color recognition and a verification with a moisture meter) you will soon find yourself in trouble.

I believe that is the underlying theme here and what Mario and David and others have come to understand and acknowledge, and why they have stepped up to better imagers.
I have turned down several potentially high paying jobs because I knew the technology was not the correct fit for the application or I understood my limitations. BUT on the same token, I have accepted many high paying jobs because I knew my limitations and my imager's capabilities as well.
Mario is dead on that you cannot have too much camera but you can certainly have too little along with too little education.
If you're trying to enter this field as cheaply as possible, you will get what you pay for.

jmo

[jbettencourt]

Originally Posted by wwarner

If you market your new found technology correctly, clients will come out of the wood work from all walks of life seeking your services because they see that you have the technology they need. And you will be tempted to take on every job that comes your way. But if you do not have a capable imager or the background knowledge (beyond pattern and color recognition and a verification with a moisture meter) you will soon find yourself in trouble.

I believe that is the underlying theme here and what Mario and David and others have come to understand and acknowledge, and why they have stepped up to better imagers.
I have turned down several potentially high paying jobs because I knew the technology was not the correct fit for the application or I understood my limitations. BUT on the same token, I have accepted many high paying jobs because I knew my limitations and my imager's capabilities as well.
Mario is dead on that you cannot have too much camera but you can certainly have too little along with too little education.
If you're trying to enter this field as cheaply as possible, you will get what you pay for.

jmo

Good words, I mentioned earlier that I have a TIR and that it performs most home inspection and light commercial work adequately. I too have turned down jobs that would have been high paying because I know that it was beyond my and my cameras capabilities and I am truthful with the client and explain why I am not the best choice for their needs and refer them to contact someone that may be able to help them like Mario who started at the same spot you are but has worked his way up with experience, training and investment. The knowledge of what the capabilities of you and your camera are come with proper training and experience. I still make very good money doing scans with my TIR and it opened other ancillary services to me. At some point I hope to move up to a better camera and open the doors to the larger scale more lucrative scanning but we all have to start somewhere. I personnaly beleive that if you can afford the TIR1 it will serve you well. In my level 1 class I was able to detect everything with my TIR that the course instructor could with a much better camera that he actually uses for the large commercial and government applications. However that was in close proximatey scanning like in a house or small commercial, that does not mean that my camera would perform the large applications that his camera could at long ranges and wider shots and less controlled environments and that is truly where you see a big difference between the higher end cameras compared to entry level cameras.Cheers and best of luck with whatever camera you choose.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

John,

Nobody is mocking you brother,

You are not, but Jason was trying to humorous.

I have no doubt that you found more defects but you are mocking a certified Level 3 Thermographer and 30K camera,

No... I am illustrating the point that without a proper background
in construction knowledge and experience, all the big titles and
expensive cameras will not make you a better inspector.


which BTW you have failed to identify the model.

It was a long time ago and I cannot remember the model number.
They have updated allot of camera models since then.


I have a B360 and I challenge anyone with a Fluke Tir or a Tir1 or a BCAM-SD to find more defects than I can.

You have experience as a seasoned inspector, so in your hands
the works well. The Level III guy was a newbie to the field.


My instructor at ITC was Paul Frisk (one of the best) and he is a Structural Engineer and a Level 3. I would think he knows a thing or two about Building Science!

I am sure he does, but regarding the total number of Level III
thermographers in north America.... the vast majority did not
come out of the construction field of use.

I have to go, I have to scan a building for a water intrusion issue at a municipal building just north of Toronto!!

Good luck on the job today... Keep up the good work Buddy.