Fluke Tir & Tir1

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by wwarner

If you market your new found technology correctly, clients will come out of the wood work from all walks of life seeking your services because they see that you have the technology they need. And you will be tempted to take on every job that comes your way. But if you do not have a capable imager or the background knowledge (beyond pattern and color recognition and a verification with a moisture meter) you will soon find yourself in trouble.

I believe that is the underlying theme here and what Mario and David and others have come to understand and acknowledge, and why they have stepped up to better imagers.
I have turned down several potentially high paying jobs because I knew the technology was not the correct fit for the application or I understood my limitations. BUT on the same token, I have accepted many high paying jobs because I knew my limitations and my imager's capabilities as well.
Mario is dead on that you cannot have too much camera but you can certainly have too little along with too little education.
If you're trying to enter this field as cheaply as possible, you will get what you pay for.

jmo

Excellent post.

The only thing I would add is that Mario himself started out with
a cheaper camera. There is no shame with that, for the type of
work he was doing.

He later upgraded. Some will follow that same path. Many will
not. Either way.... your post was very good.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Excellent post.

The only thing I would add is that Mario himself started out with
a cheaper camera. There is no shame with that, for the type of
work he was doing.

He later upgraded. Some will follow that same path. Many will
not. Either way.... your post was very good.

You are correct John, no shame in that. I just don't want my fellow NACHI members making the same (costly) mistake as I did. I believe Snell has a good seminar or webinar to help future students decide on the correct camera for their purposes.

Tonight’s inspection was a huge water incursion issue at a library of all places! I was on site for 4hrs identifying areas of concern for the remediation contractor. That's 4 hrs x $1000.00 per hour!!

BTW I also agree with the above posts from my fellow NACHI members Jerry and William!

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Just a few images (4 of 350+) of tonight's inspection

[David A. Andersen]

I started out with a BCAM (not SD) and I posted before that when you work with such inferior equipment you learn to become the best with what you have if you're motivated to do so.
But I am not going to support statements like level III thermographers cannot do building inspections, because they can and there are plenty of them out there that do.
As far as camera resolution, I just did a follow-up on a job that I started in October. I did my follow-up with my new camera and my client recognized immediately the vast difference in quality.
I have few scans 5from BCAM that have this much detail. These are commonplace now.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I started out with a BCAM (not SD) and I posted before that when you work with such inferior equipment you learn to become the best with what you have if you're motivated to do so.
But I am not going to support statements like level III thermographers cannot do building inspections, because they can and there are plenty of them out there that do.

I sat in class with several Level III thermographers. They
all agreed that with our FLIR instructor, that MOST Level III
guys do not come from a construction background and cannot
do a home inspection. Our instructor called them the "little
thermographers" because they got real humble once they
attended his class on builing IR... LOL.

It is not a slam, it is just a statistical fact. If you do not have
a construction background, it does not matter how high your
title is, you cannot do a home inspection.

As far as camera resolution, I just did a follow-up on a job that I started in October. I did my follow-up with my new camera and my client recognized immediately the vast difference in quality.
I have few scans 5from BCAM that have this much detail. These are commonplace now.

The novice to the IR industry many times makes the mistake
that Level III titles automatically makes a person an expert,
but that is not the case. All the Level III thermographers in my
class told me that.

It all depends on your background training in whatever field
you have been trained in, that makes you the expert.

I have talked to people in very high positions at FLUKE and
FLIR and they both told me they are careful about not
recommending the path of Level I certification classes, if
a person plans on doing IR inspections for buildings.

They both said they have had allot of complaints from
home inspectors who said they wished they had taken
a building related IR class, instead of Level I.

Level I was created over 10 years ago, before home
inspectors were using the IR camera.

If somone plans on going beyond a home inspection, then
they may want to consider the path of Level I, II, III and
purchasing a high end camera. In this I agree.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I started out with a BCAM (not SD) and I posted before that when you work with such inferior equipment you learn to become the best with what you have if you're motivated to do so.
But I am not going to support statements like level III thermographers cannot do building inspections, because they can and there are plenty of them out there that do.
As far as camera resolution, I just did a follow-up on a job that I started in October. I did my follow-up with my new camera and my client recognized immediately the vast difference in quality.
I have few scans 5from BCAM that have this much detail. These are commonplace now.

Are those from your Bcam or BX320, David? Those are really nice images from a Bcam if that is the case. You asked me last week what the 640x480's looked like, here are a couple that were recently taken:





Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[David A. Andersen]

It is not a slam, it is just a statistical fact. If you do not have
a construction background, it does not matter how high your
title is, you cannot do a home inspection.

John,
I am not disagreeing with you, but we are getting into some generalized statements here that really do not warrant merit. I have posted on this board numerous times in the past if you are not fully versed in what you're pointing the camera at, you should keep it in the truck!
I would revise my statement saying that you don't have to be a level III to do adequate an infrared home inspection survey.

The novice to the IR industry many times makes the mistake
that Level III titles automatically makes a person an expert,

It does in some respects. Not necessarily in the construction application. But on the same note, the novice to the IR industry many times makes the mistake of biting off more than they can chew and making unsubstantiated claims.



Jason,
I had just gotten over using a 660 all week in Level II and you had to post these pictures!

BX320, by the way... Salesmen!!!! Geeeezzz!

Sorry, I'm Cam Poor at this point in time.

[Jason Kaylor]

Actually, David now that I think about it. We are in the process of selling one of those big boys to a major university in your neck of the woods. Their application is interesting to say the least. I will ask them if they would like a thermographier to consult them in setting up their infrared tests. The professors using the unit are both PHD's in their respective fields, but I am not sure if they know a whole heck of a lot about IR.

I know you want as much experience with IR as possible, and this one is really unique.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

John,
I am not disagreeing with you, but we are getting into some generalized statements here that really do not warrant merit. I have posted on this board numerous times in the past if you are not fully versed in what you're pointing the camera at, you should keep it in the truck!
I would revise my statement saying that you don't have to be a level III to do adequate an infrared home inspection survey.

My statements are true. They are intended to take away the fog
from certain IR titles and thus convey the understanding that you
have stated...

"you don't have to be a level III to do adequate an infrared home
inspection survey." (thank you for your agreement)

You don't have to be Level I or Level II for that matter either.

As far as someone who is "not fully versed in what your pointing
the camera at"... that is why I asked you if you were a home
inspector or just a salesman..

It does in some respects. Not necessarily in the construction application. But on the same note, the novice to the IR industry many times makes the mistake of biting off more than they can chew and making unsubstantiated claims.

That's why I recommend that they take a class from someone who has worked
in the home inspection field and a course that apply's to the building environment
they will be working in.

Learning how to operate the camera is not hard. It is the diagnosis of that
information that can get tricky.

Sometimes salesmen learn just enough to sound familiar with a subject...

Jason,
I had just gotten over using a 660 all week in Level II and you had to post these pictures!

BX320, by the way... Salesmen!!!! Geeeezzz!

Sorry, I'm Cam Poor at this point in time.

Have a nice day...

[David A. Andersen]

Learning how to operate the camera is not hard. It is the diagnosis of that
information that can get tricky.

I don't know, as I waltz around the Internet I see a lot of stuff that's not being done, being as simple as it supposedly is.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I don't know, as I waltz around the Internet I see a lot of stuff that's not being done, being as simple as it supposedly is.

Learning how to click the picture or adjust the camera is very
easy to learn, compared to the huge volume of construction
knowledge, installation and repair methods and defect recognition
skills. Diagnostic skills take field experience over time and that
takes much longer than any IR class. At least this is the opinion of
the leader of a national association of thermographers and expert
witness/FLIR instructor. It made sense to me and has since
been proven right from what I have seen.

Most problems I see are not because the person does not
know how to take the picture or how the buttons work.

[Ralph Smith]

I know what the perception was that I took away from this thread. A salesman trying to push a higher end camera on a home inspector that probably will never get level 1 certified. I also saw a man trying to be logical, that was pressured as if he was lying, until the facts proved his point and the pressure could no longer be justified.

[Jason Kaylor]

If I am the salesman you are referring to, FLIR sells their higher end cameras directly from their in house sales force. I cannot sell them, so pressuring someone in to that would not do me much good.

However as a policy I do not recommend cameras over the 10k (that would be a FLIR b200, and even then there are cheaper cameras to fulfill their application) range to home inspection businesses that want to use IR solely for his/hers home inspection business. If someone truly wants to get in to all aspects of thermography then the camera selection changes.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras
Fluke TiR1 Resources
FLIR B60 Resources
Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

[David A. Andersen]

I don't see this conversation as being about pushing super high-end cameras. We are discussing the difference in a camera as to whether it can adjust the temperature reflect and emissivity. I for one think this is a huge handicap. The error factor between two comparable materials with an uncorrected thermal setting can be substantial under certain circumstances (even home inspection).

Most problems I see are not because the person does not
know how to take the picture or how the buttons work.

That is the generalized type of statements I am referring to. I can collect a huge amount if improper camera use and button pushing.

I am not disagreeing with you to disagree. I am just pointing out that the perception some new guys may take from this kind of talk (which appears to be based on justification not application) will lead to PPP.

Where are my coffee cups?
I posted cup scans with two cameras.
It is a prefect example of what you may miss because the camera was not sufficient and the wrong camera adjustments made anomalies disappear from sight.
No temp measurements, no t-reflect, no emissivity adjustments.

OK here is one.
Same scan, different button pushes.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I don't see this conversation as being about pushing super high-end cameras. We are discussing the difference in a camera as to whether it can adjust the temperature reflect and emissivity. I for one think this is a huge handicap. The error factor between two comparable materials with an uncorrected thermal setting can be substantial under certain circumstances (even home inspection).

That is the generalized type of statements I am referring to. I can collect a huge amount if improper camera use and button pushing.

I am not disagreeing with you to disagree. I am just pointing out that the perception some new guys may take from this kind of talk (which appears to be based on justification not application) will lead to PPP.

Where are my coffee cups?
I posted cup scans with two cameras.
It is a prefect example of what you may miss because the camera was not sufficient and the wrong camera adjustments made anomalies disappear from sight.
No temp measurements, no t-reflect, no emissivity adjustments.

OK here is one.
Same scan, different button pushes.

Anyone can show a picture that has been adjusted out of whack
on purpose, to distort an image. We show this cup demo in
every course.

Please show us a real example.

BTW... adjusting the emissivity will not change the image on the
viewer while looking at the camera, only the spot temperature.

Do you know of anyone who has gone threw an IR class who
does not know how to push the buttons?

How far off is the temperature readings on the TiR when looking
at an electrical breaker or the rubber on romex wires?

Several techs have told me it is only off by less than +-2%. It
works better than an IR thermometer.

Can a master electricians measure temperatures in an electric panel
with an IR thermometer? Yes.

Why not the FLUKE TiR?

Go prove me wrong. I already know the truth.

BTW... the TiR image can always be adjusted in the software, in
the office, if there is a need to verify emissivity.