Friendly fire

[Darrel Klassen]

I don't post much here but I have to say this can be one of the most unfriendly message boards I've ever seen. Even if someone posts a question that some think is stupid or amateur, most of the time the answer is go get trained or some other snide remark.

I really get the impression that SOME (Not all) IR folks and home inspectors are dare I say insecure snobs. It's like the profession stands head and shoulders above any other technical profession.

If you haven't taken a course that's deemed "approved" by the massess you're some how less of a professional or not really legitimate... not one of the clan.

IR although technical and complex in it's deeper layers isn't rocket science. In fact it's not that hard at all to comprehend and use effectively with a little training and experience even if it's done all on your own. Does that make you less technical or knowledgeable than someone who has a printed PDF certificate on their wall?

The IR profession seems less about helping and more about marketing products and training. If you don't buy into the marketing and training you are somehow branded not worthy or illegitimate.

Certification is certianly important but other than at least basic knowledge, what does it really mean? It's not the Bar exame, it's not geting an accredited degree in Computer Science, in fact, the rather expensive training is nothing more than a course and a made up certificate than can be done by almost anyone who wants to invest the time, get an ASTM book, build a course and work up a certificate and logo in photoshop.

Training is great of course but in some cases very over rated. You CAN learn on your own. My brother (Test Engineer) did IR among other things for VW for many years. Back in the day they gave him an ungodly expensive FLIR rig and the software and said here, figure out a test program for us. He became just as experienced and IR savvy as almost anyone I've seen and only got his level one years later.

I just wish people where were in general more friendly and helpful and not such a clique.

Flame away.

[Nick Gromicko]

Yep. The "Level scheme" victims are pretty rough on non-victims.

[Chuck Evans]

Fair enough.

If you have a serious question ask it and we'll try to help. If you have expertise to share, by all means feel free to do so.

Every now and then we mistake a serious question for a troll and may not respond as we would, had we given greater consideration. When that happens, we (at least the part of this criticism that I am responsible for) try to correct it and provide meaningful advice to those who truly seek it.

We also have some who lack both education and knowledge yet profess to sell both but provide no technical advice whatsoever. There are also some who give wrong advice, usually because they have been victimized by this individual and don't understand what they don't know - Yes we are pretty rough on them.

[William T. Misegades]

Originally Posted by Darrel Klassen

I don't post much here but I have to say this can be one of the most unfriendly message boards I've ever seen. Even if someone posts a question that some think is stupid or amateur, most of the time the answer is go get trained or some other snide remark.

I really get the impression that SOME (Not all) IR folks and home inspectors are dare I say insecure snobs. It's like the profession stands head and shoulders above any other technical profession.

If you haven't taken a course that's deemed "approved" by the massess you're some how less of a professional or not really legitimate... not one of the clan.

IR although technical and complex in it's deeper layers isn't rocket science. In fact it's not that hard at all to comprehend and use effectively with a little training and experience even if it's done all on your own. Does that make you less technical or knowledgeable than someone who has a printed PDF certificate on their wall?

The IR profession seems less about helping and more about marketing products and training. If you don't buy into the marketing and training you are somehow branded not worthy or illegitimate.

Certification is certianly important but other than at least basic knowledge, what does it really mean? It's not the Bar exame, it's not geting an accredited degree in Computer Science, in fact, the rather expensive training is nothing more than a course and a made up certificate than can be done by almost anyone who wants to invest the time, get an ASTM book, build a course and work up a certificate and logo in photoshop.

Training is great of course but in some cases very over rated. You CAN learn on your own. My brother (Test Engineer) did IR among other things for VW for many years. Back in the day they gave him an ungodly expensive FLIR rig and the software and said here, figure out a test program for us. He became just as experienced and IR savvy as almost anyone I've seen and only got his level one years later.

I just wish people where were in general more friendly and helpful and not such a clique.

Flame away.

Isn't this how any course, lesson, school, certificate, diploma, degree started? Before something exists, someone has to figure it out to be able to teach it. More importantly, the person or organisation should always strive to develop their knowledge and experience even. This is not the case for every teacher, school or organization.
So, while the training from certain schools, organizations or people might be overrated, it will not be the case with others.
One has to choose wisely where s/he decides to learn.

People here can be hard on others and does require having thick skin at times. But don't shy away as you will still get real genuine answers. If you don't want to post on the board, send a PM.

[Sean Fogarty]

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

[Bob Elliott]

1) You are not a member
2) Sure you did not mean to post this at Inspectors Journal?
3) IR guys actually are snobby as they spent thousands of dollars and do not wish others to get in cheap.
It would make their service worth less if we all do it so making it seem out of reach is the goal as there is no Licensing and I can say I do thermal with a temperature gun if I wish.
The $3,000 camera today was $10,000 "5 years ago" but now it is not good enough all of a sudden (get it).

4) The guys here bicker for fun because the regulars are sick of answering questions like
Gee whiz guys I am Goober and just got my license ...should I use Service Magic ?

Some of this stuff is so basic ,been answered a million times and is searchable.
Some guys are to dumb to see the exact same thread is already posted and being answered at the same exact time.

So yes sometimes they will act arrogant and bear in mind when on site we are the experts and as such any successful business owner is going to be brash and bold to survive.

If one can not handle these forum goofballs how in the heck will you survive the real world with developers and Agents handing you your lunch ?

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by belliott

1) You are not a member
2) Sure you did not mean to post this at Inspectors Journal?
3) IR guys actually are snobby as they spent thousands of dollars and do not wish others to get in cheap.
It would make their service worth less if we all do it so making it seem out of reach is the goal as there is no Licensing and I can say I do thermal with a temperature gun if I wish.
The $3,000 camera today was $10,000 "5 years ago" but now it is not good enough all of a sudden (get it).

4) The guys here bicker for fun because the regulars are sick of answering questions like
Gee whiz guys I am Goober and just got my license ...should I use Service Magic ?

Some of this stuff is so basic ,been answered a million times and is searchable.
Some guys are to dumb to see the exact same thread is already posted and being answered at the same exact time.

So yes sometimes they will act arrogant and bear in mind when on site we are the experts and as such any successful business owner is going to be brash and bold to survive.

If one can not handle these forum goofballs how in the heck will you survive the real world with developers and Agents handing you your lunch ?

Bob, do we need to find you a girly friend Relax my friend and have a great night!

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Yep. The "Level scheme" victims are pretty rough on non-victims.

Mr Nick you seem to be hung up on the numbers 1,2 and 3 thingy as you have made many comments about the numbers in the past.

The numbers don't represent anything but ones level of education and expericense in the thermography world. We have the same identification in the trades electrican, plumbers and HVAC techs we start out at a apprentience level one if I may and a journeyman level 2 if I may and a master at level 3.

The trades do not recognize the word certified we have no certified electricans or plumbers and in all reality we have no certified thermographers. That is my story and I am sticking to it

[ROBERT YOUNG]

Originally Posted by Darrel Klassen

I don't post much here but I have to say this can be one of the most unfriendly message boards I've ever seen. Even if someone posts a question that some think is stupid or amateur, most of the time the answer is go get trained or some other snide remark.

I really get the impression that SOME (Not all) IR folks and home inspectors are dare I say insecure snobs. It's like the profession stands head and shoulders above any other technical profession.

If you haven't taken a course that's deemed "approved" by the massess you're some how less of a professional or not really legitimate... not one of the clan.

IR although technical and complex in it's deeper layers isn't rocket science. In fact it's not that hard at all to comprehend and use effectively with a little training and experience even if it's done all on your own. Does that make you less technical or knowledgeable than someone who has a printed PDF certificate on their wall?

The IR profession seems less about helping and more about marketing products and training. If you don't buy into the marketing and training you are somehow branded not worthy or illegitimate.

Certification is certianly important but other than at least basic knowledge, what does it really mean? It's not the Bar exame, it's not geting an accredited degree in Computer Science, in fact, the rather expensive training is nothing more than a course and a made up certificate than can be done by almost anyone who wants to invest the time, get an ASTM book, build a course and work up a certificate and logo in photoshop.

Training is great of course but in some cases very over rated. You CAN learn on your own. My brother (Test Engineer) did IR among other things for VW for many years. Back in the day they gave him an ungodly expensive FLIR rig and the software and said here, figure out a test program for us. He became just as experienced and IR savvy as almost anyone I've seen and only got his level one years later.

I just wish people where were in general more friendly and helpful and not such a clique.

Flame away.

Your observations are correct. I applaud your courage for being honest.
There are over 7,000 registered members with INACHI yet only 100 visit the MB regularly. There is a reason. They will tell you. But just whom are these they?

You will hear "they" the offenders state an array of excuses that satisfy their needs to be arrogant and rude. It's like doing to a confessional and you play both parts. The sinner absolving your own sins.
Good old Saint Peter will have a special confessional all ready for "they" Get ready for the penance though. Only then are you absolved remember.


Many solid members have gone, some posting on other MB's, some only helping every now and then because of "they" An apparent defective quality many pay for.

Nick hit the nail on the head. See post #2
Buyer beware of all that education. Your head and demeanor may swell and you may start talking down to everyone in your path that did not take that higher degree of education. And it better be by they, Oppps their providers!

Some may even think you have something to say. They are hooked and spend that extra tens of thousands too. As a matter of fact, the percentage is well under .001 percent of all member period. You can be a they to IF you have the money. Hmmmmmmmmm.

It must be comforting to be a they. To be able to make others look so stupid, small and insignificant when it comes to the subject matter that they know so well. Myself, I just do not have the time, money, nor see the need at the moment to be self promoting me, they, and the educator of choice. I would rather make money first. Then I will see if it fits my business plan. Hopefully I will be of help and not talk in a secretive language and call myself THEY.
Several post should follow.
Absolution for the sinners me thinks

[David A. Andersen]

Originally Posted by Darrel Klassen

I don't post much here but I have

Originally Posted by Darrel Klassen

to say this can be one of the most unfriendly message boards I've ever seen. Even if someone posts a question that some think is stupid or amateur, most of the time the answer is go get trained or some other snide remark.

I don't know who your specifically talking about but try being more direct. There are pages and pages of good information discussing highly technical applications to help broaden the perspective of people getting into this field.


I really get the impression that SOME (Not all) IR folks and home inspectors are dare I say insecure snobs. It's like the profession stands head and shoulders above any other technical profession.

It has nothing to do with insecure snobbery. If you paid real close attention you will find that the biggest conflict is about some particular individual that made up a "certified course" by attending the oldest and least technical thermal imaging course from ITC/Flir. Then turning around and charging $600 to teach what he learned and in the process has done nothing to advance his training or his own certification beyond that with every other beginner here understands.


If you haven't taken a course that's deemed "approved" by the massess you're some how less of a professional or not really legitimate... not one of the clan.

If you go back and read (like you should have in the first place) you will see that most thermographers here with a bunch of numbers that you don't seem to like you will see that almost all of them will support three or more trainers in the field that they feel they should recommend based upon the fact that the trainer has extensive expertise in the field. Such as a PhD in nuclear physics, electrical engineering etc.


IR although technical and complex in it's deeper layers isn't rocket science. In fact it's not that hard at all to comprehend and use effectively with a little training and experience even if it's done all on your own. Does that make you less technical or knowledgeable than someone who has a printed PDF certificate on their wall?

While that's a bunch of malarkey because that's what the arguments are all about. This is a "science". The fact that somebody doesn't want to teach the science saying that it's unnecessary is the problem and the reason for conflict here. This is not Polaroid camera technology by clicking a picture and printing it out. You need to understand what's in the scan and before you can do that you must be able to generate the scan which could have multiple targets and exceptions in a single scan. If you use your camera on automatic and let her fly you don't necessarily find what you're looking for. The trainers here feel that there is no used to take any action to correct parent temperatures and readings generated from the camera during building inspections. They think pretty colors are all you need to achieve to assess the situation. It's not about finding pretty colors, it's finding what, where and why.


The IR profession seems less about helping and more about marketing products and training. If you don't buy into the marketing and training you are somehow branded not worthy or illegitimate.

As I explained elsewhere, certification (as used freely around here) is not certification of the thermographer it is certification of the course. What you describe is a made-up course is exactly what was done in this infrared certified thing. However the ASTM book was not involved, just Photoshop.


Certification is certianly important but other than at least basic knowledge, what does it really mean? It's not the Bar exame, it's not geting an accredited degree in Computer Science, in fact, the rather expensive training is nothing more than a course and a made up certificate than can be done by almost anyone who wants to invest the time, get an ASTM book, build a course and work up a certificate and logo in photoshop.

Again, back to certification: in the real world thermographers work for a company and that company is what does the certification and maintain certification for that particular individual. They do this by sending an individual to a "certified training facility" or by certifying the individual on-site through their own program. In most cases is going to be cheaper to send someone out then to develop and train on your own. Seeing this is not the practice in self-employed home inspectors, who is going to train you in the house? Yourself?


Training is great of course but in some cases very over rated. You CAN learn on your own. My brother (Test Engineer) did IR among other things for VW for many years. Back in the day they gave him an ungodly expensive FLIR rig and the software and said here, figure out a test program for us. He became just as experienced and IR savvy as almost anyone I've seen and only got his level one years later.

So if there is no importance in level training, why did he bother? Please explain to us how many times he screwed up in the process of becoming proficient at what he did. Around here we get sued when we screw up. The levels of training basically are progressions in the field for use when you have more than one thermographer so you can set down the responsibilities in your company for each level of thermographer. Level III training (though has discussions on more advanced thermography techniques) is primarily set up to do exactly what your brother was required to do, build a company thermography plan, employ its standards, and ensure compliance. Your perspective of what's going on around here should include the fact that this level III responsibility is being performed by an individual who is not even attained level I status (and his building science status has expired due to the lack of continuing education).

I just wish people where were in general more friendly and helpful and not such a clique.

I would hope that someone here that has been contacted or has contacted thermographers from here to discuss particular situations they need help with and would respond about just how un-friendly we all can be around here! As a matter of fact, I would challenge you to find one single post from the infrared certified team that has helped anyone here besides promoting a $600 unqualified (ASTM) course.


Flame away.

[David A. Andersen]

It must be comforting to be a they. To be able to make others look so stupid, small and insignificant when it comes to the subject matter that they know so well. Myself, I just do not have the time, money, nor see the need at the moment to be self promoting me, they, and the educator of choice. I would rather make money first. Then I will see if it fits my business plan. Hopefully I will be of help and not talk in a secretive language and call myself THEY.
Several post should follow.
Absolution for the sinners me thinks

Another interesting perspective!

Because there are people here that have "seen the light" during their travels to become more proficient in the science of thermography and want to demonstrate to people entering the field for the first time, or have taken an inappropriate course and then subsequently produce a website claiming to be Superman with x-ray vision and able to perform a bucket full of thermal tasks for which they have no idea of what to expect, they are considered (snobs)?

"Small, stupid, insignificant "? You're the one calling the names! Why not back up your claims with "facts"? If you think you know better than why not engage in the conversation?

Anyone here that thinks that they can say they don't need training, we could continue to be "snobs" and demonstrate how little you know about what you're doing and that you're probably going to cause irreparable damage to your business (and the industry).

Why is it that insurance carriers refuse to cover home inspection thermography?
Go out on the Internet and look around. When it looks like it's too good to be true, it is.

The people you're talking about, you know "they"?, are the ones that are presenting "facts". It's the likes of those whimpering here that have no idea what they're talking about because they haven't done anything to learn, or experience the truth. They are blindly taking what they're told by people that tell them they can "get by with less" and trying to crusade forward and spread the misinformation to others just beginning to conceptualize thermography.

This is an irritation to those that have spent all that big money to experience the big picture. It's like someone standing in your face saying it's nighttime when the sun is shining! It's hard to ignore this blind trust that they grasp onto so dearly, because to do otherwise would require you walk the path, pay your dues and actually experience the truth. So now you stand here claiming forthcoming flaming conversations to follow…

Snobbery, I don't think so. Passionate, more likely.

[Jeffrey R. Jonas]

Originally Posted by ryoung7

Your observations are correct. I applaud your courage for being honest.
There are over 7,000 registered members with INACHI yet only 100 visit the MB regularly. There is a reason. They will tell you. But just whom are these they?

You will hear "they" the offenders state an array of excuses that satisfy their needs to be arrogant and rude. It's like doing to a confessional and you play both parts. The sinner absolving your own sins.
Good old Saint Peter will have a special confessional all ready for "they" Get ready for the penance though. Only then are you absolved remember.


Many solid members have gone, some posting on other MB's, some only helping every now and then because of "they" An apparent defective quality many pay for.

Nick hit the nail on the head. See post #2
Buyer beware of all that education. Your head and demeanor may swell and you may start talking down to everyone in your path that did not take that higher degree of education. And it better be by they, Oppps their providers!

Some may even think you have something to say. They are hooked and spend that extra tens of thousands too. As a matter of fact, the percentage is well under .001 percent of all member period. You can be a they to IF you have the money. Hmmmmmmmmm.

It must be comforting to be a they. To be able to make others look so stupid, small and insignificant when it comes to the subject matter that they know so well. Myself, I just do not have the time, money, nor see the need at the moment to be self promoting me, they, and the educator of choice. I would rather make money first. Then I will see if it fits my business plan. Hopefully I will be of help and not talk in a secretive language and call myself THEY.
Several post should follow.
Absolution for the sinners me thinks

They are out to get you !!!

[David A. Andersen]

isn't that the truth!?

[Greg W. Mathias, CCHI]

Originally Posted by jjonas

They are out to get you !!!

SAVED!!
Just cause that is some funny stuff right there

[Greg W. Mathias, CCHI]

Seems funny that Darrel Klassen has not come back to say anything to defend his post. David, you must have scared him away. Your a big Meanie!! LOL