Infrared & Construction Skills?

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by belliott

Trying to follow this thread and many others over the years in regard to IR.
I am a Home Inspector and proud of my work so far but have no interest in being some kind of IR fanatic.
For the most part I read these threads and feel as if many IR guys think they are some kind of category above above guys that do not spend thousands for training and IR cameras.
I see you guys in fighting over training and from an outside view pointn feel as if the whole thing is cult like.
Listen here as my only interest is trying to find things like water intrusion and could care less about this green thing (how PC).
To me the IR would just be another tool to help find water intrusion.
Do I need to spend $10,000 in training and equipment just to go a little farther in determining if there is a issue not visible to the naked eye?
The other stuff like checking temps on a breaker,seems not to be something I would be all that concerned about.Is there a case where a guy with no IR some how missed a major issue from not seeing temp issue in a breaker?(prove it)
As far as cameras go the guy you all look up to named Will Decker says he uses a 120x120 camera so it is B.S that you need more, going by what he has said.
Just asking.

Bob I am sorry to hear the you feel that us IR guys are a cult that is not my intentions. I live in a very rural area and don't have the population to depend on for just HI. I got into this business to go beyond the home inspection business. I use IR in all home inspections and have people from all over the State seeking me out from the web page. If you have all of the inspections you want doing them the way you do that is great just keep doing what works for you.

I just increased my HI inspection prices again and a Realtor asked me why I simply stated I think I am worth it.

[Jeffrey Moore]

[quote=belliott;693420]The other stuff like checking temps on a breaker,seems not to be something I would be all that concerned about.Is there a case where a guy with no IR some how missed a major issue from not seeing temp issue in a breaker?(prove it)

Reprint of a post I made on another site. This is an electrical item that would have been missed by electrician.

Received a call last night and told that half the building was without power and there was a smell in the electrical room. I grabbed the thermal camera and volt meter and off I went. The electrical room had the smell of burning wire insulation. Thermal on and found this anomaly in one of the 2 3phase 200amp fuse blocks

Hmmmm says I to myself cause this fuse block wasn't the on that was out according to labeling.
This is an image of the SE wire to the "hot" fuse

Pulled fuse block and looked inside panel and saw this

This is image of pulled fuse block with top rt actually bottom rt when inserted


Electrician arrived and we discussed the findings.
Diagnosis-- Blown fuse in thermally "normal" looking block
Normal functioning fuse in "hot" block
Both the thermally norm and abnormal fuse block blades were not properly inserted
and both were arcing inside. Enough time had passed from the blown fuse side that the
delta T had passed. Electrician bent the blades so proper insertion could be made.

Talked today with electrical company that did the installation and the best response from them
was "oooh ****z", maybe the inspector that passed the panel put them in wrong.
If I had not had the thermal camera the electrician would have just replaced the blown fuse and been gone.
The thermal camera showed him he needed to check the other fuse block because something was wrong

[David A. Andersen]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I attended the building science class with ITC with numerous
level II and level III thermographers. They ALL confessed that
they would never try to do an IR scan of a building because
they were not qualified and had no background in that field.
Titles mean nothing.

The BS class contained 80% of everything that was taught in
level I. The application part of the class dealt with buildings. Later
I was offered a level I class for free (by FLIR, because I tested one
of their cameras). I have seen the level I material before and I
turned it down because most of it was just a repeat of things
I already knew or was about things not related to a building
inspection. I am easily bored, so I did not attend the class.

Since you have NEVER been to my class or seen me do an IR
scan of a building, then you have no basis for your opinion.
If you can provide proof, then I am open for your feedback.

Our class covers the basics of IR to about the same extent
as level I or a building science class from FLIR-ITC. Will Decker
who is level II, and I ,wrote the class for home inspectors.
The application part of our class is for home inspectors. Many
have told me our class is better than level I.

I have never had one person complain about a single IR scan
I have done in the last several years. If you assume that I
am doing it wrong based on nothing more than your feelings,
then you are in error. I would at least try to provide proof.

Hundreds of inspectors are now operating the IR business
after taking IR class only. Some have gone back and started
learning the basics again because we warn people in our class
of what they can get into if they do not understand the things
they point their camera at.

Note: I read your sample report on your website. I see
several mistakes you made. Perhaps you need to examine
your own needs before you comment about me with no proof.

You must copy and paste this. It's the same over and over again.
One time someone told you a level III (electrical engineer) said he would not try using IR on a House.

The point was (as you stated) "You must know what your looking at with the IR camera or have someone that does". As far as an IR guy using a camera on something he does not have a masters degree in, that is why there are "self imposted" IR Testing STANDARDS to follow.

You do not teach or follow these standards on the premise that because you are a HI you don't need it.

How would you know that you got 80% level I through the BS course? You haven't taken it! Levels BS through Level II is a progression of theory and practice (Most of which you reject in your teachings). Level III is not more Level I. As Charlie said, it is basically a "teaching degree". Teachers have degrees in Science, History, Chemistry, English Lit etc... they also must have a degree in education before they can teach what they know to someone else.

You sir, have not made it to Level I or II nor are you qualified to do the Job of teaching IR which Level III is all about.

So, your lame excuse that a Level III can't do a home inspection is just that, lame.

There are all kinds of Level II Thermographers that have Masters and Phd's in their field. I am sure they are smart enough, why is it that they don't go for Lvl III? Because they are the Do'ers, not the Teachers...

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

You must copy and paste this. It's the same over and over again.
One time someone told you a level III (electrical engineer) said he would not try using IR on a House.

No, several level II and level III thermographers from
numerous industry told me they would not attempt do an
IR scan of a building because they were not trained in a
construction background. Your not listening.

The point was (as you stated) "You must know what your looking at with the IR camera or have someone that does". As far as an IR guy using a camera on something he does not have a masters degree in, that is why there are "self imposted" IR Testing STANDARDS to follow.

You do not teach or follow these standards on the premise that because you are a HI you don't need it.

I teach that a home inspector better know what he is looking
at before he attempts to do an IR scan.

How would you know that you got 80% level I through the BS course?

The BS instructor and all the level II and level III guys in the
room said so. Later, after I saw the level I material, I understood
that they were indeed correct.

You haven't taken it! Levels BS through Level II is a progression of theory and practice (Most of which you reject in your teachings).

I have not rejected anything that relates to a home
inspection. Please provide proof.


Level III is not more Level I. As Charlie said, it is basically a "teaching degree". Teachers have degrees in Science, History, Chemistry, English Lit etc... they also must have a degree in education before they can teach what they know to someone else.

Level III is a wonder thing. But it does not qualify you to
do a IR building scan if you have no construction knowledge
and training. Are you joining the ranks of the idots now?

You sir, have not made it to Level I or II nor are you qualified to do the Job of teaching IR which Level III is all about.

There are thousands of level II and level III that are not
qualified to teach or perform an IR building scan.

Why did you ask to teach my class if you were no qualified?

So, your lame excuse that a Level III can't do a home inspection is just that, lame.

It is an undisputable fact. Can someone with no construction
training do an IR scan of a building? Hell no. Your an idiot.

There are all kinds of Level II Thermographers that have Masters and Phd's in their field. I am sure they are smart enough, why is it that they don't go for Lvl III? Because they are the Do'ers, not the Teachers...

I am happy for the doers.

Can someone who was raised and trained in IR machine maintenance, turn around the
next day and diagnose IR images of the human anatomy? Would you want him to
diagnose your anatomy when he does not have any training in this field?

Next.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Can someone who was raised and trained in IR machine maintenance, turn around the
next day and diagnose IR images of the human anatomy? Would you want him to
diagnose your anatomy when he does not have any training in this field?

Next.

John I feel sorry for you every one is an idiot except you you just keep singing the same old song day in and day out hoping that someone will believe everything you say as the gospel.

BTW I spoke with Nick last evening he stated he was going to be making some sharp right turns today I Mention this only because I do not want to see your nose getting broke would be horrible

[Bob Elliott]

Charlie and Dave thanks for the answers.
I could not help but notice John did not respond.

Still asking about intent to use only as a supplement to regular home inspection however.
What I meant by cult like was half joking as it seems like the threads are always leaning towards a you do not have enough camera type discussion making me feel that no matter where I start I am always going to be inadequate in the field and needing to spend even more.

Reminds me of a Mobius strip.

[Andrew MacDonald]

Originally Posted by belliott

Trying to follow this thread and many others over the years in regard to IR.
I am a Home Inspector and proud of my work so far but have no interest in being some kind of IR fanatic.
For the most part I read these threads and feel as if many IR guys think they are some kind of category above above guys that do not spend thousands for training and IR cameras.
I see you guys in fighting over training and from an outside view pointn feel as if the whole thing is cult like.
Listen here as my only interest is trying to find things like water intrusion and could care less about this green thing (how PC).
To me the IR would just be another tool to help find water intrusion.
Do I need to spend $10,000 in training and equipment just to go a little farther in determining if there is a issue not visible to the naked eye?
The other stuff like checking temps on a breaker,seems not to be something I would be all that concerned about.Is there a case where a guy with no IR some how missed a major issue from not seeing temp issue in a breaker?(prove it)
As far as cameras go the guy you all look up to named Will Decker says he uses a 120x120 camera so it is B.S that you need more, going by what he has said.
Just asking.

Bob,
Call me. You have my number. I would like to respond to your post, and would prefer to do it privately.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by belliott

Charlie and Dave thanks for the answers.
I could not help but notice John did not respond.

Still asking about intent to use only as a supplement to regular home inspection however.
What I meant by cult like was half joking as it seems like the threads are always leaning towards a you do not have enough camera type discussion making me feel that no matter where I start I am always going to be inadequate in the field and needing to spend even more.

Reminds me of a Mobius strip.

Me to Bob My intent was to just start out as a supplement to HI but when I realized the potential of IR I was not satisfied I am on my 3rd camera now just keep updating when my cameras get paid for and a little in my pocket I dearly want to own a Flir P series with 640 resolution and quit the HI's and do strictly commercial IR

I still feel inadequate as compared to someone that has been in the IR business a long time its all a drawn out learning process and if someone starts into this business it is as always with any field at the bottom. I started my HI business just like everyone else a screwdriver and a flashlight in my 14th year now and it takes a 1 ton truck to haul my tools around

I just decided to stir John up because I can its rather humorous to see him promote his $500.00 meal ticket he can call me stupid does not effect me I don't care what they call me as long as they call me for dinner and payday

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by cbottger

John I feel sorry for you every one is an idiot except you you just keep singing the same old song day in and day out hoping that someone will believe everything you say as the gospel.

BTW I spoke with Nick last evening he stated he was going to be making some sharp right turns today I Mention this only because I do not want to see your nose getting broke would be horrible

I love the truth. Please introduce me to a level III thermographer
who says he is qualified to do IR scans in EVERY industry,
regardless if he has been trained in that industry or not. You
need to go back and take some basic 101 classes.

What does Nick have to do with anything?

[David A. Andersen]

Me to Bob My intent was to just start out as a supplement to HI but when I realized the potential of IR I was not satisfied I am on my 3rd camera now just keep updating when my cameras get paid for and a little in my pocket I dearly want to own a Flir P series with 640 resolution and quit the HI's and do strictly commercial IR

Same here!
Seems there is only one loud voice here screaming mediocrity in the wilderness!

This isn't a "cult" Bob, gust a few guys yanking JM's chain.
He's so stuck in the past we just can't help ourselves!

I don't even read his responses to my posts. If it keeps him busy, good...

We just can't help it.
The more we learn, the more "reality" we understand.
We don't expect everyone to have top of the line education and equipment right off the bat. But we get high blood pressure from idiots arguing facts. Charley, Bill, My Self and many others are more than willing to HELP those that are willing to listen. We have nothing to gain from TEACHING anyone about IR. As a matter fact, I ask myself why I even bother sometimes. I'm just training competition...

By the way *** hole, I never wanted to teach your course, I just wanted to help your sorry *** out! That was back when Will was on board...

I never wanted any part of your $500 big ones.
I never wanted to sell crappy IR equipment...

What you started was great, but your stuck in the past. Get with the program or get your *** out!

[John McKenna]

If someone says a home inspector cannot do an IR inspection unless
they go out and buy a new camera just like theirs it seems a little vain,
especially when RESNET and FLIR-ITC say the opposite.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

What you started was great, but your stuck in the past. Get with the program or get your *** out!

Thanks. Many agree with you that our IR class is great.

Just because I don't travel on your path, does not mean I
have lost anything.